we need a video card
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| jimf May 09, 2006 8:36 AM EDT |
Don says:
Quoting:we need a video card that embarrasses ATI and NVidia The ATI/NVidia domination looks to me to be a very unhealthy market situation... Kind of like our two party system. Basically, we've gone from 5-6+ major players down to the two that now control virtually the whole market. ATI acts with total arrogance that is rivaled only by MS, and NVidia is better only by comparison. Neither is particularly friendly to Linux, or the GPL. Being an engineer and not a programmer either, Don's idea really strikes a practical note. I can't help but think that there are now enough Linux users so that whoever comes up with a video card that runs flawlessly under Linux and supplies GPL'd drivers would have a captive market and a potential cash cow on their hands. I can't understand why someone hasn't already tapped this market. |
| cjcox May 09, 2006 3:00 PM EDT |
Neither Nvidia nor ATI will ever open source their drivers because too many people don't want to go to jail (or lose their jobs). Unfortunately, as much as you might think it would be a "cash cow" it wouldn't be. There are only a few really dedicated, zealous, RMS-like Linux folks where there is no room for non-GPL implementations. Let's say there is a new company that does this. Let's say, in order to sustain, you have to pay $800 per card for a competitive (though less performance wise) solution with GPL'd drivers. I say bankrupt in a month or less.... I don't think RMS will buy a truck load of them. My guess is that he would see no need for such a device. It's a highly competitive space where margins are low and technology costs are VERY high. Without volume (and I'm talking thousands and thousands), it would be very hard to survive. So... impossible? Not necessarily. This happens all over the place everyday. You simply need a company which has a revenue producing engine to support operating the GPL driven "free" card segment at a loss... which in turn will help generate more revenue for their money-making side which may in turn get the card volumes up to a level to reduce the loss on the GPL driven "free" card... and eventually, the card becomes competitive price wise (and with a bit of R&D... assuming you are attracting talent now to the new organization, perhaps even compete performance wise). So.. it's a hard road. Now.. IF.. Nvidia or ATI did open up their drivers, that could be significant. But after cleaning out all condemning code, they might not perform as well as their peer... and since they're happy with current volumes, I don't think either would want to take the high risk of doing so. We'll see. |
| tuxchick2 May 09, 2006 4:10 PM EDT |
Where do you get $800, or distributing GPL cards at a loss?? That sounds nuts. I'm running a nVidia GeForce 5500 or some such, which I paid less than $80 for. It has 256 megs ram, and it runs DOOM3 satisfactorily. There used to be a lot of nice 3D cards with open drivers, like Matrox and S3. Dunno where they went. Now Intel is working on graphics adapters with open drivers. Yes, it's a tough market, but your numbers sound crazy. |
| jimf May 09, 2006 5:51 PM EDT |
Well, Matrox is still around... kinda, but development of Linux drivers is at a standstill. The real issue with Linux drivers as, I understand it, is that these companies make money from the speciality drivers.. CAD and such, So they don't want to release the code or even the chip interface specs. Thus no GPL. |
| tuxchick2 May 09, 2006 6:43 PM EDT |
Jimf, I wonder if there isn't a significant market for plain ole ordinary 2D/3D adapters? Not bleeding-edge gaming, nor elite CAD/graphic design, but ordinary real people like me who want their GL screensavers and low-rent games like Tuxkart? |
| cjcox May 09, 2006 7:11 PM EDT |
tuxchick2, in order to compete you must build a competitive product (duh). A GeForce 5500 (effectively a bit better than a GeForce 2) or a Matrox 400/450/whatever (effectively... well.. it's so slow, it's hard to compare it to anything now) are NOT competitive products. Even so, you'd be looking at high costs even to produce a marginal OpenGL product... so why buy a $300 board when you can get a hunk of Matrox/Nvidia/ATI junk for |
| grouch May 09, 2006 7:18 PM EDT |
tuxchick2: I'd love a card like that. I'm using a hand-me-down nVidious card (with the open driver) that wouldn't handle Doom3 on my game-fanatic son's computer (Athlon 1.2 GHz, 1G RAM, some outlandish nVidious video card, Debian Sarge. Even though 1.2G is now a slow processor for gaming, the k7s5a motherboard (http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/K7s5a-HOWTO.html) seems to work magic with data movement on-board). See, I understand about the ~need~ (real or perceived) some folks have to use a closed driver. My son suffers the occasional crash in such games, due to secret crap that can only be blamed on nVidious. I can't run Doom3 on my computer with the open driver, but I never suffer a crash. I think you and I are in agreement about Linspire being a bit underhanded in their promotion of closed drivers. |
| NoDough May 09, 2006 8:37 PM EDT |
The open source graphics card has been in development for some time. For details, go here http://kerneltrap.org/forum/hardware/opengraphics [edit] Sorry, I sourced the project's home page incorrectly. The appropriate home page for the project is here. http://wiki.duskglow.com/tiki-index.php?page=Open-Graphics [/edit] |
| jimf May 09, 2006 10:19 PM EDT |
Looking at the latest update [url=http://wiki.duskglow.com/tiki-index.php?page=Press about th project&PHPSESSID=b1db8e0c3a00cc89a5f074e95b396ef3]http://wiki.duskglow.com/tiki-index.php?page=Press about th ...[/url] I see that the project is still quite active.
This would seem to knock cjcox's estimates into the weeds, but, he seems pretty close to reality in the possible development scenario. These guys seem to have a viable development and marketing plan which seems to be moving on track, but, one can see that any final product is perhaps years off. Still, I think their will be a market if the final product is delivered at their projected price point. Maybe Tuxchick and I will get our FOSS card after all. |
| grouch May 09, 2006 10:26 PM EDT |
jimf: Intel seems to be working on graphics to compete with ATI and nVidia. They intend to release an open source driver. |
| jimf May 09, 2006 10:48 PM EDT |
Hey grouch, at this point, something is needed to break the monopoly. ATI and NVidia treat Linux users as second class citizens... "No good drivers for Linux!". Intel GPL'd drivers and the above project could be the things that make or break Linux as a viable alternative to MS, without serious compromise of the GPL. |
| cjcox May 10, 2006 2:08 PM EDT |
Intel, like the low end ATI boards are both examples of "ok" accelerated cards with open source drivers. jimf, actually both Nvidia and ATI treat their Linux base pretty well. Definitely NOT as second class citizens. They have too many people dedicated to the Linux work on their cards. They just can never open source their drivers... for the reasons I mentioned. Intel certainly has the ability to create a free-er card that performs competitively... they have something now.. just isn't for anything too strenuous. |
| jdixon May 10, 2006 7:06 PM EDT |
> actually both Nvidia and ATI treat their Linux base pretty well. Nvidia does. I've known people to disagree with you about ATI. |
| cjcox May 11, 2006 7:25 PM EDT |
Well.. with regards to ATI... because of the way their driver works, I don't have to worry about nuking ATI's video driver everytime I do a kernel update. Perhaps that's just dumb luck. I've been told that the reason why the free radeon driver works (better than nv) is because ATI was a bit more open with information than Nvidia. I like the performance of the Nvidia cards... and the support forums are excellent at nvnews.net. But I was somewhat impressed with the ease at which the ATI driver installs now. Maybe I was just fortunate in that regard. I do hope that one/both open things up more with regards to Linux... but I seriously doubt it at this point. |
| jimf May 11, 2006 7:27 PM EDT |
cjcox, You 'were' just fortunate in that regard. |
| tuxchick2 May 11, 2006 8:00 PM EDT |
I've found that nvidia is more reliable, and their linux installer is dead easy. But it has also hosed my kernel more than once. I've never had any luck with ATI on any platform, all kinds of flakiness and instability. I wish my old 8 meg 3DFX were still usable, but it doesn't drive 19" monitors worth a darn. :( I don't need bleeding-edge gaming power, just 1280x1024 and Tuxkart. Is that so much to ask? |
| jimf May 11, 2006 8:50 PM EDT |
My ATI 8600 with 256mb has more than enough my 21"monitor @ 1600x1200, however getting it to run the ATI radeon driver at all is a royal pain and very iffy to set up. I would have abandoned it long ago except for the exceptional 2D performance for graphics and CAD. |
| TerryH May 12, 2006 10:28 AM EDT |
If you are actually interested in putting your money where your mouth is, you should all take a look at the Open Graphics project, and its sponsoring company, "TechSource": http://www.opengraphics.org/ http://www.techsource.com/ Their goal is to design a complete open hardware (and mostly free hardware) graphics card for Linux machines. They are not yet targeting higher end game applications, but this is precisely the type of movement we need to see, and if you care about software freedom in the future it will be worth your while to support them. I have no doubt these cards will be much more expensive for the same performance than proprietary cards with proprietary drivers -- but also much better performing than proprietary cards with no drivers! Among other things, the site will let you sign a petition asserting how much you'd be willing to pay for such a card. The project is progressing -- they have a schematic, which means they are moving on to board-level design. |
| jimf May 12, 2006 11:07 AM EDT |
TerryH, This was already discussed in the above thread. It's pretty far along, but I'd be surprised if there is product in less than a couple of years. It also appears that Tech Source grant its employees the right to do the project on their own time, but dropped official support. |
| herzeleid May 12, 2006 7:33 PM EDT |
cjcox what are you talking about? nvidia works hard to win the business of their linux customers, and are responsive to tech support requests. Of course there is always room for improvement, but I don't see the logic in singling out the best and most linux friendly video card maker for criticism, when there are a number of vendors who stubbornly refuse to even admit the existence of a linux market. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!