Debian doesn't Fail
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| devnet Mar 31, 2006 10:11 AM EDT |
People Fail to use it (Debian) correctly. Ubuntu is Debian for Lazy people. Remember, all software can be compiled from source in Linux...there isn't any excuse for not being able to get it installed on your PC and setup in working order. It always peeves me when someone doesn't do homework. If you wanted to not have updates go wrong, a bit of detective work would have done you a ton of good. If you INVESTIGATE a bit further and discover PINNING in your sources...then you have nothing to fear. But alas, it's easier to just dump the most powerful Linux OS on the face of the planet and hop on the old bandwagon eh? If you were really wise, you would have made disk images of a working Debian system and backed it up before each major backup (I backup my PCLOS system before a monthly upgrade). Then if things went wrong, woosh and you'd be back up and running. Hell, you could have found out which package was causing problems through process of elimination (reinstall image, install package(s), repeat) and submitted a bug report to Debian developers and helped both Ubuntu AND Debian. Bah, that would take too long eh? We must have instant satisfaction. Forget putting time in to making something better...even if you could have just asked a question in a forum or googled for the answer right? Instead, you took the easy way out eh? Well, I don't blame you, most people do and that is their (and your) prerogative...but your tag line for this article is quite wrong. And your subject matter is quite a few days late to the Ubuntu party that no one wants to leave from. This whole segment you're beginning has become cliche. I'll be skipping over this and any "Debian fails and Ubuntu Wails" articles you write in the future. Next time, write something with a worthwhile subject matter...not something 800 other bloggers have done over the last year. |
| tadelste Mar 31, 2006 11:17 AM EDT |
devnet: Is this a RTFM comment? If so, try this link: http://lxer.com/module/pages/v/12/ |
| devnet Mar 31, 2006 11:53 AM EDT |
ahhh...much better :) thanks for the link...everything is so much more clear now :) If only life had a manual...wait a second...I remember hearing something about that in church...what was it again? |
| tadelste Mar 31, 2006 12:07 PM EDT |
I heard it at an FCA meeting. Joe Gibbs called it the Bible. |
| jimf Mar 31, 2006 1:23 PM EDT |
In Debian it's called man. And while Ubuntu is an ok Distro, it's pretty shallow and ignorant start out a Ubuntu piece by essentially dumping on Debian. Heck, that's almost 'Mephonic' ;-). IMO, Debian is just as easy to install and maintain as is Ubuntu. I'd also suggest that there is a lot more help out there for the Debian desktop than Herschel, or any of the other users who struggle with it realize. Heck, I'm on line at IRC (Server: irc.oftc.net Channel: #debcentral) from 12am to 12pm central. Usually a lot longer than that. We have some very experienced Debian users who usually hang out there. |
| tadelste Apr 01, 2006 1:03 PM EDT |
Quoting:IMO, Debian is just as easy to install and maintain as is Ubuntu. You're kidding, right? Never mind. I don't think we should diss any Linux distro, especially Debian. That said, I love Debian. But, I don't consider it as easy to install as Ubuntu. As far as mantenance goes I agree with you. For people familiar with it, I think it builds fine. It's also real Linux - as in Free Software. I think people get into a little trouble by attempting to build from testing. I would suggest going with stable and then if they want to upgrade to more current and less stable apps like evolution or gaim then can add those repositories to the sources list. What do you think? Jim? |
| jimf Apr 01, 2006 2:51 PM EDT |
No Tom, I'm not kidding. I agree with you that stable may be best for a first time effort, and It certainly helps if you have previous Linux experience, but Debian is really quite easy to install. A far cry from what it used to be. An awful lot of the fear people have of Debian is just the bad old 'reputation'. Certainly deserved in the past, but much refined at this point in time. I just did an install from the 1st CD in the latest testing release and it even got my 1600x1200 screen resolution right. that's something that even Mepis and Kanotix didn't get right. Yes, the install is still text based, but very straight forward and easy to follow. Lol, it's even easier for Gnome users like yourself, as Gnome is the default desktop. Then you can pick up the latest Automatix from here: http://debcentral.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=235 , and load up all the bells and whistles. |
| grouch Apr 03, 2006 2:30 AM EDT |
jimf: Is the Etch installer really that much improved over the tediousness of, say, Woody? I've heard it's much friendlier than in the past. I keep a bootable CD with a bare minimum Debian Woody on it for those times when I set someone up. (It's the pair of boot floppies and modules for installing Woody). It's just enough to get connected and apt-get to Sarge and everything they want. Lately I've tried using Mepis as a start-up for people, but the last one I used wanted to install too much cruft. It's quicker for me to add from minimal rather than subtract from a generic, one-size-for-all installation. |
| jimf Apr 03, 2006 8:35 AM EDT |
grouch, Normally, I use the netinstall, which is Here: http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/daily-builds/daily/arch-la... But lately testing has become pretty crazy, because of the compressed release schedule, and, I find it is better to use the first CD in the complete Distro set which can be found here: http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/ I just did this again this weekend to see how much my enthusiasm was affecting my judgment of the ease of the install. Selecting a base install and desktop, in 15 minutes I ended up with a very nice though minimal Gnome desktop (Gnome/gdm). The screen was setup perfectly (1600x1200@85mhz24bit), as was eth0, sound, a 2.6.15 686 kernel, and, synaptic was installed. Now, you still have to add a good sources.list to apt, but, otherwise you are pretty good to go. This may not be enough for someone who has never used Linux before, but for anyone with even a little experience, it's more than viable. Us KDE guys will have it a little harder as we need to go to aptitude and select KDE and KDM in addition to the basic. Otherwise it's pretty much the same, and, any configuration you want to do after that is as you'd do it in any other Debian setup. Pretty much SOP. |
| number6x Apr 03, 2006 9:05 AM EDT |
jimf, Thanks for the post. I've been using mepis as well. It sounds like I've should give the latest deb installer another whirl. mepis is testing the ubuntu kernel for the next release. I think this could benefit ubuntu more than mepis, but it means mepis would move further from debian vanilla kernel. Thanks again. |
| jimf Apr 03, 2006 9:31 AM EDT |
Quoting: it means mepis would move further from debian vanilla kernel. That's sad. I may have issues with the folks at Mepis, but I owe Warren a lot for giving me a tool that really allowed me to learn how to use Debian effectively. A real loss. |
| number6x Apr 03, 2006 11:47 AM EDT |
I think he just has too much to do crafting his own kernel, software packages, and all the marketing. If he can get a stable kernel from Ubuntu that supports more of the desktop apps he wants to include, he has much less work. he always tried to use a debian kernel, or a kernel that could be produced using debian repositories through debian patches. Ubuntu is willing to develop their own kernel with their own patching. So their binary compatibility with debian is variable. Shuttleworth does not let the distro stray too far from debian though (like mandriva did with red hat). I read that the ubuntu team re-synched everything when sarge came out and then started their work off sarge. If they do this with every major debian release, they will never stray too far. Ubuntu makes all there work available, and their philosophies are pretty good, so at least their improvements are available for everyone else. I started using mepis as a replacement for Libranet. Both were very pure debian. I'm downloading the debian testing cd's now, so I can follow your advice. From what I've read since this morning, I may go back to using debian to install debian. It sounds like the testing installer is pretty nice. The april issue of tux magazine has a nice round up of many of the latest distros: http://www.tuxmagazine.com/ the debian distros covered include: debian gnu/Linux Linspire Ubuntu/Kubuntu Mepis they also review SuSE, Fedora, and Mandriva. Nice reviews |
| grouch Apr 03, 2006 7:27 PM EDT |
jimf: Thanks for the info! So far, everyone I've exposed to a GNOME or KDE desktop has insisted it's too complicated. (It may be because they never ask me until they're really fed up with MS. I don't do Windows). Mepis, Knoppix and Ubuntu provide the exposure. It's running 2 to 1 in favor of a bare, almost beige fvwm with a few buttons. I'll check those links. |
| jimf Apr 03, 2006 9:11 PM EDT |
Quoting:because they never ask me until they're really fed up with MS grouch, Yeah, inertia, and laziness are a huge factor in many peoples lives. Maybe all of us. we'd rather stay with something we know, even if it isn't working well at all unless the benefits are enormous. When that change involves a technology that's new to us. and, we aren't very good at it any way... Well, you've seen the result... or lack of it. The truth is that MS has used this in producing a group of people who know little or nothing about their system, and really couldn't care less, unless it doesn't work. Then they only know enough to scream for support. Many of these people will never be competent Linux users, or of benefit to the Linux community no matter how much we 'want' to help them. That's just reality, assisted by human nature... and MS. As far the interface, I think that KDE is much closer to Windows in the way that things work, but that may be only for those who used Windows before XP. In any case neither Gnome nor KDE is any more difficult to learn than Windows. It is all a 'what I first learned on' preference issue. Linux is, among other things, a learning experience. Unless the user is willing to participate in that, no one can force him into it, no matter what the benefits. Personally I still think that Mepis is a good place for a Windows user to start learning the Debian way of doing things. Sure the community is borked, and it has too much 'cruft' as you put it, but It's not difficult to set up, and, (so far) it remains close to Debian. Kanotix is another Distro with the same benefits and problems. I've gotten a number of people into Debian using IRC (Many of them weened from Mepis). The advantage is that you can be there and walk people through the rougher parts. Of course it helps if they have a second computer to talk on when something unforeseen happens, but the real time presences helps a lot. |
| SFN Apr 04, 2006 6:39 AM EDT |
Quoting:So far, everyone I've exposed to a GNOME or KDE desktop has insisted it's too complicated. Try giving them Gnome or KDE (whichever) and plopping XPDE over the top of it. See if they don't suddenly feel that it's less complicated (which is ridiculous but if it works......) |
| jimf Apr 04, 2006 8:25 AM EDT |
OMG!....... Now if i can just stop laughing. |
| grouch Apr 04, 2006 8:28 AM EDT |
I don't get it. apt-cache search xpde doesn't return a thing. |
| jimf Apr 04, 2006 8:49 AM EDT |
http://www.xpde.com/faq.php Maybe it's for the best that it hasn't hit the repos ;-). |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 04, 2006 4:58 PM EDT |
I've never understood why people say Debian is hard to install. The step by step install is simply step by step, rather than multiple steps assumed to be done for you. I *like* being able to choose between LILO and GRUB, choosing not to set up Xwindows right now, or repartitioning (or not repartitioning) the way I want it and not the way someone wants it for me. It's all the same steps, but when Debian is complete you'll know more about what you have than if it's all done invisibly. That would also be an argument for Linux From Scratch, but noooOOOooo thank you very much. I like tracking Debian Unstable. I've been doing that for 6 years straight on my desktop machine(s), having used both Stable and Unstable on various machines in the mean time. |
| jimf Apr 04, 2006 7:52 PM EDT |
The same here Bob. Problem is that somewhere allong the line some people got the notion that you should run your OS without a clue as to how the whole thing works, or where anything is... pretty much like Windows I guess. |
| tadelste Apr 05, 2006 7:16 AM EDT |
Quoting:I've never understood why people say Debian is hard to install. It is hard to install for Windows cross-overs. Lots of new Linux adopters fit that criteria. For experienced Linux users, Debian works fine. Imagine a newbee attempting to understand partitioning using Linux fdisk and then fixing bugs in grub. |
| grouch Apr 05, 2006 5:07 PM EDT |
>"Maybe it's for the best that it hasn't hit the repos ;-)." jimf: That's nasty. And you didn't even warn me! Bob_Robertson: The Debian installer has been very tedious in the past. It's not that there is more to do than other distributions, it's just that all those questions were dealt with during installation. With others, you have them spread out over time after installation. It terrified lots of newbies. |
| jimf Apr 05, 2006 8:49 PM EDT |
well, I wasn't going to get into that grouch, but I've been doing support for n00bs for the last three years and a bit. I've always been polite, and , as long as the new user is willing and capable of working with me I 'will' get him up and running. I also think that improving the functionality of the Linux GUI interfaces is a priority, although what's a real improvement may be the dispute. I'll take a GUI over a command line anyday. But there's the problem... Some of those new users have been running Windows for quite some time, and, still don't know basics like how to deal with files and directories. Many of them don't know how to burn an iso, or partition a HD. All that would be ok too... I'm willing to explain the basics, if that's what is necessary, but, The attitude of all too many coming from the Windows world is, one of demand, with no desire or willingness to assist in correcting problems, and, for whatever reasons, no interest in learning anything new, no matter how much better it is. That's my cut off point. I refuse to assist individuals with no desire to learn. To be fair, MS has fostered an 'Empire of Ignorance'. It is to their advantage to have the Windows user entirely ignorant, with a basic consumers attitude and no desire to learn how to do more that run the application... Users in the basest sense. Service is money in MS's pocket. Unchecked virus's and ignorance of security are revenue... It gets worse... No one deserves all that, but, if you are going to cop an attitude and demand that you be 'serviced', then you need to start looking for a Distro that has a paid service contract, or some other service arrangement, or a Mac, or just stay with MS and suffer, or consider giving up computers altogether. In view of all that, I personally find the xpde project to be offensive and certainly counter to the Debian way of doing things. Duplicating MS's bad interface is no solution at all. |
| JackieBrown Apr 05, 2006 10:26 PM EDT |
Debian is very easy to work with once you learn a few commands. As Jim said, it just takes getting past this is not Windows and there is no reason it should work exactly like windows. There is not much that you cannot reconfigure by simply typing dpkg-reconfigure packagename or if you need gui install gkdebconf. The new installer is child's play and if you need a gui you can always use http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/GUI I have been using sid/testing for almost a year now (Kanotix and Mepis before.) Switched for the same reason as grouch "too much cruft" |
| grouch Apr 06, 2006 5:31 AM EDT |
jimf: For about a week, I've been corresponding with an older (than I) gentleman in an attempt to assist him with a website badly mangled by MS Word. Almost each of the dozens of emails between us contains ample evidence of the 'Empire of Ignorance' you point out. The correspondence began when I emailed him to point out that MS Word had used 1198 characters to accomplish the same thing in the web page that 39 characters would do. Naturally, it was broken in a few places and I offered a few suggestions. The man replied that he appreciated the offer but had no idea what I was talking about. He could only edit the web page with MS Word and could only "publish" it by way of some "wizard". He described that wizard as very frustrating, having spent over 10 hours at one time trying to get it to upload his page properly. I don't do windows, but this man needed help. He fights with the software continuously. It seems deliberately designed to prevent him from understanding any underlying concepts and processes. We spent most of one day trying to simply copy a file from his "Desktop" to either his "Windows folder" or his "C: folder". In frustration, I told him that in Linux he could just do 'cp file destination' instead of all the mousing and selecting and menuing he had been trying to do. He decided he wanted to try Linux, "or would this be over my head?" The man has 4 MS Windows computers and 1 old Mac OS 9. The reason is that each in turn became "messed up". Yesterday, he paid some site online to fix his W2K box, which terrified me because he wasn't specific about who was paid to do what. It turned out to be some registry clean-up site that appears to be legit. The priorities we established are: (1) get a decent browser that is less risky, (2) get an email client that does not execute attachments, does not interpret the text of email and therefore does not essentially turn control of the computer over to unknowns, (3) get a simple text editor that does not add to what he types and does not assume it knows better than the user (adding filename extensions or hiding them, for example). He now has Firefox downloaded and installed on 2 computers, Thunderbird downloaded and installed on 1 computer, nano-1.2.4.zip concealed from him on 1 computer, and dsl-2.3.iso lurking somewhere on 1 computer. Even though he is on dial-up, he downloaded Damn Small Linux to see if he could get it going on 1 computer. He reported that "windows cannot open this file". I'm still trying to convince him that computers are literal idiots and not possessed of fearsome, omnipotent magic beyond his comprehension. He has designed and built several impressive machines from scratch and ran a small business erecting steel buildings before retiring. The MS Windows interface, however, remains a mysterious, confusing obstacle to him. It also presents an extremely frustrating obstacle to remote assistance, since it depends so heavily on graphical controls for almost every task. There is no powerful, easily described CLI alternative. Every basic operation that needs to be performed has to be described in terms of graphics. His first attempt at "burning" a CD illustrates how illogical the interface is and how much it has confused with its illogic. He dragged the "DS1.2.3 folder" from his desktop to the "Nero icon" on his desktop. Windows reported success. He checked the CD and reported that it was showing 702MB capacity, 702MB free. I then had to explain to him that in OS/2 dragging a file and dropping it on a program icon would result in that program acting on that file, but in MS Windows it merely copies the file, moves the file or makes a "shortcut" to the file in the destination "folder", in most cases but not all cases. A human being might correctly interpret his intent, but that system would not. The "success" report he received was not specific enough to indicate that it was success at something he did not intend. With 4 PCs to work with, on which he's spent over $12,000 in 7 years, I'm going to try to talk him through getting one MS machine working correctly while setting up Linux on another. I fully expect him to abandon the MS machines once he gets Linux going, mainly because (a) Linux doesn't lie to the user (hiding parts of filenames, concealing true locations of files, etc.), (b) tasks may be accomplished by CLI or GUI, depending on the user's choice and the task, (c) using Linux teaches the user instead of increasing dependence of the user on the vendor, (d) Linux allows the user to choose or even create the controls and metaphors for controls that suit the user. |
| jimf Apr 06, 2006 10:26 AM EDT |
grouch, I want to respond in more detail, but right away, get this guy on NVU for his site (there is a windows version). at least that will clean up the site code. I'm sure there is another way to upload to the site, but you probably need to get the details from the site IT. If you can get him on IRC, or even phone him, that helps expedite things too. You obviously have your work cut out for you :D. |
| grouch Apr 06, 2006 4:53 PM EDT |
jimf: Thanks, I'll check that out. He has made amazing progress, IMO. The best was the day that he had a Helen Keller moment and realized, while viewing the source of his web page, "This is the web page in HTML code????" and that he could edit it to change the appearance. He has an "FTP Manager" available, but it's of little use until he recognizes that images are not actually stored as part of the page, but are pointed to by the page. Remember, his sole experience with web pages is via MS Word, which greatly obscures the source and the structure of a web page. I'm sending him a CD of Damn Small Linux. If he can get that connected, he can begin learning about html instead of trying to figure out wizards and drag-and-drop and folders. All the peripheral operations such as file copying and naming can be shown to him by simply having him mimic text commands. That will free us both to concentrate on the main task. It will be much simpler to tell him to just type 'nano myfile.html' and begin demonstrating what tags do, than it is to describe mouse movements and nested menus. |
| jimf Apr 06, 2006 6:59 PM EDT |
Lol, HTML in Word is soo messed up. NVU code is quite clean and the WSWG is nice too.. another revelation for him. NVU is now able to save directly to the site (via ftp) like Front Page. Not sure you want him to do that till he understands what the relationship is between those HTML files, and the various graphics and so on. He needs to associate everything to files, folders and physical location. It is nice that he is hanging with you through the learning process. It's not easy to get from where he's starting to any kind of competency, especially after being conditioned for so long by the MS 'experts' ;-). |
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