How do new users learn? (If we do all their stuff for them...)
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| r_a_trip Mar 30, 2006 6:41 AM EDT |
If a basic question has been answered one billion times in over three million howto's, readme's, FAQ's and fora... Why is it still necessary to rehash the same story again, just because a newbie asked a question that has been answered for centuries? If a newbie says: "I've read the howto, but I don't get it. I get stuck at < insert appropriate point here >." Yes, then it becomes a matter of being friendly and helping the newbie over the hurdle. Otherwise I think it is a matter of telling the newbie that the community is not there to wipe his butt every time he bends over. Howto's, readme's, FAQ's and fora are there to answer those frequently asked questions. Asking for help is ok, but there should be some effort to find an answer on your own. Entering a forum and yelling "I've just bought < insert distro here >, now tell me how to use this!" will get you an RTFM from me and the F won't mean friendly either. |
| Skapare Mar 30, 2006 7:17 AM EDT |
If they are children, this is a job for their parents or teachers ... kids that pursue learning on their own rarely do the newbie thing. The more likely newbie is an adult who, because of having already spent time learning something else, wants instant gratification, Not everyone wants to be a teacher of someone who wants everything taught to them all at once, specifically tailored for their needs. But otherwise they do need to get up to speed quickly, or they might be lost. Sadly, much documentation is rather poor. It can take quite a bit of time to find the jewel you need at the moment, if just looking for one answer, just because all the other answers are in the way. One problem is that the same issue people might have some something could be expressed in many different ways. When reading FAQs, I so often want to know where to submit new questions. Sometimes there is a place. And sometimes someone will point out that a totally different question has the same answer (but since I didn't know the answer first, I couldn't have seen that). I have another big beef with the support we get from the FOSS community. More on that in a later episode of LXer. |
| tadelste Mar 30, 2006 7:27 AM EDT |
I'm simply amazed at your attitudes. What is a newbie anyway? It that technical jargon you Linux people use? I'm new to this thread and I need some help. The other question I have. Why would someone have a mouse next to their computer. And where do you get a mouse? In the wild or at a pet store. I'm confused. Please log on to my computer and walk me through it. Thanks in advance. |
| jdixon Mar 30, 2006 7:28 AM EDT |
> Why is it still necessary to rehash the same story again, just because a newbie asked a question that has been answered for centuries? My solution to that is usually the statement "Google is your friend", followed by the appropriate search terms, the URL to appropriate Howto, FAQ, man page, et. al., and a quote of the appropriate section of said source. This answers their question, points them to where more detailed information can be found, and explains to them how to find further such answers in the future. Yes, it's repetitive and wastes the time of those more experienced, but I found it the best way to help people learn. It's still RTFM, just in a more detailed and friendly way. If the person gets upset with this level of RTFM, then they're probably a lost cause. |
| jdixon Mar 30, 2006 7:30 AM EDT |
Tom: > And where do you get a mouse? Well, first you get a cat. If you're lucky, you then just find mice lying around the house when you least expect them. :) |
| tadelste Mar 30, 2006 7:36 AM EDT |
My cat sees a mouse and takes off. His name is fraiddy cat. I think he has agoraphobia, he's been housebound for years. No help there Mason. |
| jdixon Mar 30, 2006 8:31 AM EDT |
Tom: We have a spare stray at the house. He sneaks in through the pet door at night and eats the leftover cat food, so I'm sure he's smart enough to be a good mouser. If you can figure out how to get him from WV to Texas, he's all yours. :) |
| tadelste Mar 30, 2006 10:00 AM EDT |
Hmmm. It sounds tempting. |
| number6x Mar 30, 2006 12:15 PM EDT |
Please read Amy Hoy's article on Help Vampires:
http://slash7.com/pages/vampires She's inspired by their antic ob Rails forums, but it applies everywhere. |
| devnet Mar 30, 2006 12:41 PM EDT |
"If a basic question has been answered one billion times in over three million howto's, readme's, FAQ's and fora... Why is it still necessary to rehash the same story again, just because a newbie asked a question that has been answered for centuries?" Because there is no centralized documentation point nor users manual that is set in stone for Linux. If each distro had the same organized structure for documentation there would be less questions...it's not that way though so the questions come. If a new user asks that question repeatedly, instead of just replying "RTFM" we should be asking ourselves, "now why would the new user continually ask that question...wow, somewhere a process must be broken" and then we should be trying to fix that process be it documentation, organization, etc. So honestly, it isn't the users' fault that things are unorganized or that they can't use boolean logic...so why would we just give them a single phrase and send them on their way? |
| helios Mar 30, 2006 5:22 PM EDT |
If I know the user is real in their need to know, or desire thereof, I simply call them and walk them thru the problem, or guide them to the correct website. I have rolled out of bed at 2:30 am to answer a phone call from Luxembourg. She was in an absolute panic, had updated her kernel and was now getting the black blinking screen of "I just screwed up". Easy enough to fix but can you remember the first time you thought you had ruined weeks or months of data? I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, hell, I'm close to broke. Here is the thing I found out. I don't care who you are. If you don't follow your passion today, you might not have tomorrow to get it done. My passion just happens to be helping people unshackle themselves from Microsoft. I spend every night from 10pm to 12am answering emails from people who need help. Sure there are leg-clingers that will drag you to the ground. Trip knows them when he sees them...that's the secret. Just a friendly push in the right direction and an encouraging word. Doesn't take much more than that....but some time. |
| devnet Mar 31, 2006 10:17 AM EDT |
Helios, It is attitudes like yours that need to be proliferated through the Linux community. Selfish elitism is a plague that infects many Linux communities. Wish there was a vaccine that we could give people to make it stop. Instead, perceptions have to change...and that's the hardest thing to change on the planet because its not changing one person...its changing many. And not everyone perceives things the same way as everyone else does. The deck is stacked against us, we have optimism, our wits, a handful of distros, a six pack of beer, and a desire to help people. Perhaps it will be enough for the 100 or so people we touch. Perhaps those 100 will touch others...Perhaps. Until then, I'm going to drink a few more beers, document a How-To on Font Installation in Linux, and relax with some music via amarok. |
| jimf Mar 31, 2006 2:03 PM EDT |
r_a_trip said:
[quote]Asking for help is ok, but there should be some effort to find an answer on your own.[quote] I see absolutely nothing wrong with r_a_trip's original post. Unlike the MS world, we are expected to give back to the community and all of the help, both documentation and live response is voluntary. For the new user, we expect only the attempt to understand the documentation, a little patience, and respect for the people that do try to help them. All to often, new users adapt the Windows world's attitude that they are 'entitled' to answers and 'service' without any effort or participation on their part. That is just wrong, and will not fly in the Linux community. It's great that helois and devnet are willing to offer the level of help that they do. New users need to realize the commitment and work that this requires, and be very grateful. I do hope that they are passing on the sense of community that is so essential to Linux development, and not just encouraging a group of 'users' in the basest sense. |
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