more n00b's?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| jimf Feb 25, 2006 6:18 PM EDT |
I fail to understand why devnet should pick out Ubuntu for his rant against the n00b unfriendly. Ubuntu may have it's faults, but he makes it sound like the evil empire. It is no where near that, and has added many new users to the Linux fold.. To become a knowledgeable Linux user requires that one be willing to learn new information, but no more than to become a knowledgeable Windows user. The info and methods of doing things is just different. The truth is, whether in Windows or in 'any' Linux Distro, the 'average user' devnet so fondly talks about is an idiot, without the desire and in many cases the ability to manage their system. People who expect it all to appear by magic are in for a disappointing life in any given situation. I am entirely for GUI interfaces, but, when devnet says that your average user can't deal with a terminal occasionally, he's telling me that he hasn't', for whatever reason, learned to operate a computer on any platform. I become more and more dubious of adding a new mob of people to Linux who are 'only' users in the basest sense. I don't see this doing Linux any favors, no matter what the market share. Ultimately, I see 'point and click Linux' is becoming a way to dumb down Linux to the lowest common denominator. Sorry, but I will not support that. devnet also talks about PCLinux and Mepis, but, to do anything in either of those Distros still requires a certain knowledge of Linux structure and was of doing things. I've done extensive support for Mepis and I know that sooner rather than later the user will have to drop to that feared command line. The new user needs to learn how to handle that, A point click solution only delays and masks the real problem. Overall, this article is just talking trash. |
| devnet Feb 25, 2006 8:21 PM EDT |
Then you saw where I told everyone that I use the evil empire right? I admit that Ubuntu is a good solid distro and that I use it. But like I said, new Linux converts is not where we should press it. SimplyMEPIS and PCLinuxOS are fantastic distros because they have everything working right away. That will encourage new Linux users right out of the gate that their experience is positive. They'll be happy and more apt to solve problems that may arise later. Throw a spoke in their wheels early and they're liable to get off the bike and never try to ride it again. It's all about experience and what distro I think that new Linux users would benefit the best from. Remember Jim, I did a 5 month long experiment to back up this assumption last year. I have tons of data to support it. What does anyone else got? Devnet |
| SFN Feb 25, 2006 9:52 PM EDT |
I can't really speak to PCLinuxOS as I only tried it once and briefly but SimplyMEPIS does not have everything working right away. My installation of that was on a SONY VGN-A140P. Right off the bat, no desktop. Some minor tweak to the conf file, can't remember what it was, and it was running but a new user isn't going to do that. Once the desktop was running, it didn't detect a sound card. (i810, I believe) |
| salparadise Feb 25, 2006 10:09 PM EDT |
All of which is preferrable to an 800x600 BROWN desktop where there's NO browser plugins installed by default and that's IF you can work your way through the installer. All of which is also preferrable to Windows Live CD's, if there were such a thing, they'd cost £20 a piece and there'd be several diffferent types per manufacturer, and there'd be no net functionality and mostly they wouldn't work and they'd over write parts of the hard drive and would crash constantly. devnet is right (IMO) If you want new users you need to help them as much as possible. Some distros do this better than others. There's no law that says "all linux users must want everyone else to use Linux", but if you're one of those people that do, then Ubuntu is not the road to go down with the "never installed so much as a wallpaper before" types. Salient point being that Ubuntu is "aimed at being easy for new users" and yet other distros have a better solution for these "new users". |
| jimf Feb 25, 2006 10:12 PM EDT |
devnet, I've watched your 'experiment'. I'm just not totally convinced that your 'data' is particularly accurate or even valid. My experience certainly doesn't support your conclusions. As I said, I've been seeing the point and click stuff just masking user learning issues. I can't speak for PCLinux, but a lot of the info on the Mepis forums is inaccurate or just plain BS, so that doesn't help either. I know the GUI interface, point and click as it were, will continue to develop, and eventually Linux will become easier to use, but I just don't see that as the magic bullet that will propel Linux to fame. I'm also not entirely sure that your and helios' definitions of success for Linux are the same as mine. Also, I'm sorry, but I see nothing in Ubuntu that would make it all that difficult for a first time user. Nothing any of us can do will mask the fact that it is Linux and not Windows. Anyway, we really wouldn't want that now, would we? |
| dotmil Feb 25, 2006 11:08 PM EDT |
"Remember Jim, I did a 5 month long experiment to back up this assumption last year. I have tons of data to support it. What does anyone else got?" Having your spouse run a distro for a few days is great and all, but I'd hardly consider that to be slam-dunk accurate indicators enough to generalize out to cover *all* new Linux users. What you proved was your spouse's ability to play dumb (I know she has more knowledge that used in the test cases; she even stated as much in several of them) and act as some stereotypical new user. Now, run that same experiment with several hundred people who have honestly no Linux experience (that is the group you're talking about right?) and define the background and usage expectations of those users then you may have something. What if this "new Linux user" was a BSD or Solaris user? I hardly think some CLI-phobia would be an issue at all. |
| salparadise Feb 25, 2006 11:42 PM EDT |
Aye, there's the rub. Is there such a thing as knowledge free computing? (Meaning point and click - no need to learn anything about anything). Should Microsoft have encouraged people to think there was such a thing? (If indeed that's what they've done). How many people will turn away when they realise they are going to have to learn something? Has microsoft done anyone any favours (by making computing a widely available opportunity) or just made a rod for our backs? (Why isn't it simple? Where's the "set my PC up for me wizard"?) If a user who has never installed an OS before tries Ubuntu, at what point will they get confused? The point at which it asks for a hostname? Or the partitioner? Or the "is your time set to UTC?" bit. Or all three? What about when they try to access multimedia content in a webpage and get "no plugins found" messages? Or when they try to play a DVD? helios and devnet are concerned with a new users very first impression, for it's this impression that will go on to impact their experience, and effect how they relate that experience to those around them. If such a new user comes back with "within 5 minutes it was asking me stuff I've never heard of before" then another OEM Windows box is sold and another handful of people hear that "this linux isn't as friendly as it's hyped up to be". When you go to the local computer shop (as a non technical buyer) you see display pc's setup for you to look at. They are usually playing a film or a game or something to show them off. The fact that MS don't provide all the drivers needed is transparent to the buyer, as is the way Windows installs. (And plenty would run a mile if they knew). Because the shops don't tend to have Linux boxes setup correctly the OSS community is left to sort it's own "showcase" version out. Which is where PCLInuxOS and Mepis come to the fore. Not so much of a "this is the way we should all go", more of a "this is a great place to start". |
| SFN Feb 26, 2006 10:51 AM EDT |
Quoting:All of which is preferrable to an 800x600 BROWN desktop where there's NO browser plugins installed by default and that's IF you can work your way through the installer. Just so I'm clear, you're saying you think that the average new user would rather have a desktop that doesn't start up and not have their sound card recognized than have the resolution that most people use anyway, have it be brown and not have the ability to view some multimedia via the web? |
| jdixon Feb 26, 2006 10:53 AM EDT |
Sal: > All of which is also preferrable to Windows Live CD's, if there were such a thing, they'd cost £20 a piece and there'd be several diffferent types per manufacturer, and there'd be no net functionality and mostly they wouldn't work and they'd over write parts of the hard drive and would crash constantly. To be fair to the Windows technical folks, you're overstating the issue. Take a look at http://www.ubcd4win.com/ before you make any judgements about the possibilites for a Windows Live CD. The only real requirement is that you already have to have a license for Windows XP. That said, I agree that PCLinuxOS and SimplyMepis are better "total newbie" introductions than Ubuntu. They're still not perfect, but they're closer to what we need. |
| salparadise Feb 26, 2006 9:48 PM EDT |
jdixon
"All of which is also preferrable to Windows Live CD's, if there were such a thing, they'd cost £20 a piece and there'd be several diffferent types per manufacturer, and there'd be no net functionality and mostly they wouldn't work and they'd over write parts of the hard drive and would crash constantly." Implicit in this is the presumption that said live CD's were produced by MS rather than by enthusiastic users and was a backhanded swipe at MS. SFN "Just so I'm clear, you're saying you think that the average new user would rather have a desktop that doesn't start up and not have their sound card recognized than have the resolution that most people use anyway, have it be brown and not have the ability to view some multimedia via the web?" Are there only the 2 alternatives? No, there's more than that, there the other two distros we're talking about, both of which come with bucket loads of plugins and are still free and arguably much easier on the new user. Which was the point in the first place. Nobody is knocking Ubuntu. It's just that some folks have noticed that in some areas Ubuntu is NOT newbie friendly at all and that that in turn could sour the experience for some. All the original post said was, "I disagree that Ubuntu is best and here's why". From my own experience where Ubuntu comes into it's own is with it's community on the user lists. I've heard more than a couple of complaints about Mepis and have never looked into PCLINuxOS community (though if folks like devnet and helios are there it must be pretty good), The Ubuntu community - last time I was there, some months ago now, was friendly, helpful and very patient with new users. |
| jdixon Feb 27, 2006 3:06 AM EDT |
Sal: > Implicit in this is the presumption that said live CD's were produced by MS rather than by enthusiastic users... Ok, point granted then. :) |
| SFN Feb 27, 2006 5:21 AM EDT |
Quoting:Are there only the 2 alternatives? No, not at all. There are gobs of options. That's one of the great things about using Linux. However, your response to my story about SimplyMEPIS failing some very basic hardware detection was to say Quoting:All of which is preferrable to an 800x600 BROWN desktop where there's NO browser plugins installed by default and that's IF you can work your way through the installer. In what way is that preferable to a new user? |
| salparadise Feb 27, 2006 7:16 AM EDT |
Ubuntu doesn't make the pen on my tablet pc work. I have to go and hack the xorg.conf file to make it work.
Ubuntu does have an nvidia driver but they keep quiet about it and you have to go looking via apt-cache search or synaptic to find it - Mepis offers it during install.
The point being, Ubuntu misses some hardware and has a less than ideal installer - even if it is initially simialr to the XP Installer. Is there an operating system on the face of the earth that supports all hardware out of the box? My response about brownness wasn't precisely in answer to your point about Mepis and hardware. Just that I think Mepis is a better solution for the "never tried Linux before" folks. Perhaps it would be better if I added the following, ...best solution for those who never tried Linux before and have little if any experience of maintenance/installing an OS. |
| SFN Feb 27, 2006 7:23 AM EDT |
OK. I thought your response was directed at my comment as opposed to Ubuntu overall. I'm giving PCLinuxOS another try now. I'm trying to get my wife to stop using Windows as I end up having to wipe her system and reinstall everything a couple of times per year. I'm looking for the least headache in terms of her use of it. She won't be installing it herself so how easy it is to get running won't be an issue. However, I generally feel the KDE gives windows users a more familiar feel than Gnome. Although I love Ubuntu I still seem to find issues with Kubuntu. Becasue of that, PCLinuxOS looks somewhat attractive in this situation. |
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