Echo
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| bbigby Feb 25, 2006 1:55 PM EDT |
Yes. You stated just what I was thinking. "The Linux ideology revolution is over." Sure, we still have work to do, but I've gotten to the point where now I just want to focus on studying Linux, and using it to create value for myself, and for others. Personally, I'd like to see references to more technical articles. For example, how do I use Eclipse to develop GNOME applications. I've found some information, but I would like more. |
| helios Feb 25, 2006 2:37 PM EDT |
The Linux ideology revolution is over. Does that mean that World domination has been achieved. Well, no, obviously, but that may never happen. There are still threats to Linux, but they are not ideological, they are political, technical, and economical. Those battles are still being fought, but the players are not the same. The FUD wars are over. Then the revolution is not over and if you are watching Korea and the EU, the FUD War is still raging. When, as an advocate, I find that only 5-9 people out of 100 know that they have an alternative to Microsoft Windows, then the revolution has not yet begun. On the level you speak, then yes, I will concede that it has been achieved. However, until my 65 year old neighbor lady and the gardener know that they at least have a choice in how they chose to operate a computer...Viva Revolution! |
| myddrin Feb 26, 2006 5:05 AM EDT |
Well, I was one of the most frequent posters for a while, something like 1999-2001. (I think at one point the only one more frequent was dinotrac.) I think it was a combination of things. Clearly the whole issue of the editor astroturfing his own site was a big deal (slashdot probably still has an archive of that.), and I that too the wind out its sails for about 6 months or so. provides a good overview: [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=linuxtoday astroturfing&btnG=Google SearchGoogling]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=linuxtoday astroturfing...[/url] While a lot of the die-hard posters like myself, dinotrac and others stayed on, most of the less frequent (but still insightful) posters really started to drop off after that point. And for me, I really lost my fire for watching every little detail of the linux world when MS announced its "shared source" initiative. Once that happened, I knew the idealogical(sp?) was mostly a mop-up operations from that point on . So, I became much more active in pushing companies to linux and other open source technologies, rather than partaking in a site that was mostly just "firing up the base" so to speak. And I've largely be successful, the last company I was at ended up using a lot of non-GPL'd open source software. And currently I'm down at PyCON where I announced that both the companies I work for currently have released their primary products under open source licenses. And finally, I think the other big deal was the coming of the blogs. While LT provided a great soapbox before blogs were a dime a dozen, now I can surf a dozen blog aggegators and get basically the same thing. (I know that feel I need to say something, nine times out of ten I'll use my own blog...even though it gets maybe 100 visitors a week, tops.) |
| cr Feb 26, 2006 6:19 AM EDT |
This LXer story was picked up by Linux Today. I just posted a comment to their story; since it'll probably take four to eight hours for it to be moderated and added to their story's comments stream, I might as well post the same comment here as well for timely public scrutiny. --cr --------------- Three reasons the 'zing' went away 1. Linux Today gave up a lot of community credibility and goodwill during the [http://wirednews.com/news/culture/0,1284,45872,00.html] 'Georgie Tirebiter' episode. That was awhile ago, and current Managing Editor Brian Proffitt appears to run a clean outfit, but the damage was done. 2. Unlike other blog-style Linux news sites, Linux Today pre-moderates all comments. This would not be a problem except that, whether because of site policy or a shortage of staff, that moderation is glacially slow. It may give the editors here a warm feeling to find ten or twenty first-round comments backed up and waiting for release, but, if those editors care about holding onto (the attention of) a community, it should make them anxious instead. It's no fun to post a comment and come back four hours later to see if anyone thought it worthy of an intelligent response. That's a Usenet rhythm; the rest of the Internet doesn't work that slow anymore. When more rapid sites (Slashdot, Digg, LXer, your-choice-here) are carrying the same headline story, there's no good reason to stick around waiting here when you could go post your opinion, get it off your chest and up for public scrutiny and feedback, and get back to work instead; not when a lot of the most erudite commenters didn't stick around either. The staff here needs to be augmented by somebody (even if it's volunteers) doing rapid moderation at all hours just to fix the fault and rely on time to undo the damage. 3. That egregious-tissue-of-lies Microsoft ad to the right of this column has got to go: it is offensive to many of us (longterm commenters among that 'us') that it has become a permanent part of the site's layout. It sucks credibility from the rest of the site, leaving it with an unhealthy tinge like LinuxInsider. Those of us who know it's full of lies also know that a lot of the PHBs and n00bs don't: they're the most likely to be suckered in by it, but they can least afford to do so. For those who understand how rotten Microsoft is, that ad taints LT's credibility; for the rest, that ad borrows LT's credibility. Either way, it's an example of Ayn Rand's fatal compromise, a compromise of principles (i.e., giving a child a compromise of a half a glass of milk and a half a glass of poison is still toxic -- perhaps the editors here who are parents can relate to that illustration). In plain English, Linux Today needs to figure out just who they're working for -- us (the Linux community) xor Microsoft -- and adjust their site accordingly. Or is this the result of that? |
| jdixon Feb 26, 2006 11:01 AM EDT |
> In plain English, Linux Today needs to figure out just who they're working for... Or is this the result of that? This is the result of that. Which is why I no longer bother with Linux Today. I'll still follow the occasional link there, expecially to read Brian's articles, but that's about it. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2006 11:32 AM EDT |
So that's why my ears (er, fingers? eyes?) were burning. The demise -- makeover? -- of LinuxToday is all of the above. In it's heyday, LT was a function of people who loved what they were doing and worked like mad at it. Dwight and Dave, of course, then Marty Pitts and Paul Ferris and assorted other little ragamuffin penguins worked like fiends for their herring and seemed to love most every minute of it. That bled through into the site and that love nurtured a lively community. And that's the thing: It was all about the people. Think about it. How many Linux news sites are there? How many have there been? It might have been a rarity when LT first hit the net, but that didn't last long. News sites were and are a dime a dozen. People made LT special, not the other way around. Brian Profitt is a good guy and a good professional. Trouble is, nothing about professionalism (and certainly nothing about corporatism) equates to love and vitality. LinuxToday is a case study in Kantian moralism. Amateurs -- including those who were paid to produce it -- create and nurtured a special little something that an infinite army of professionals typing away on an infinite number of keyboards might never re-create. |
| myddrin Feb 26, 2006 2:25 PM EDT |
Wow, this is practically turning into a reunion....next thing you know we'll have Joe Barr and Paul Ferris and all the old gang here. Anyone remember what happened to Micheal Hall? He was the editor after the whole Tirebiter episode....and co-wrote a pretty good advocacy book on linux with Brian, IIRC. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0761531513/002-5880052-7424... ) but I went away for a while and when I came back Brian was in charge of things. |
| Libervis Feb 26, 2006 3:36 PM EDT |
I don't agree with the conclusion of this article. I think that what the author calls a revolution that is over is instead just the very beginning. The "revolution" is yet to come. Or there may not be a real revolution, but an evolution instead. To conclude that the ideological fight is over is incredibly faulty. Even now when so many corporations and people are using GNU/Linux and Free Software most of them don't know that what they get with it is not just a good operating system, savings of costs and better technology, but also freedom which infact made all these benefits possible in the first place. When they don't know that GNU and through GPL Linux came because of freedom above all else, they wont ever learn to value this freedom properly which may indeed at some point in the future lead them to loose it all over again and before they know it, loose those benefits they got. Yes, as long as people don't realize and value freedom, a history may very well repeat itself and we could well see new kinds of monopolies forming. Not learning to value freedom means not learning from the history that we're experiencing and we all know what not learning from the history means (duh, it repeats it self). As for LinuxToday.com, it so clearly isn't a web site owned and led by people who care about this freedom ideology. Infact, I don't think they really care about GNU/Linux as an operating system either. JupiterMedia saw a new buzzword ("linux") and attempted to profit on it. That's an old story. You old time LT guys were the ones who made that place and once LT crossed the line, you left and created a site that LinuxToday could have been if their leaders really cared, the LXer.com. I am glad that it is a success. Just don't push it over with that advertising. I see you implemented IntelliText ad. That can be annoying sometimes, but I can tolerate it. ;) As for LT I think it will slowly wither. It takes them very long to approve submit stories and they already lag behind other news sites. Add to that the fact that their site is slower and more bloated than other sites (how could it not be with so many ads) and the problem of comments approval mentioned, I think it can't survive for too long... Cheers Daniel |
| garyedwards Feb 26, 2006 3:54 PM EDT |
Funny but, i've been wondering the same thing. I still carry LinuxToday's RSS headline feed on my.yahoo.com, and have posted it also to my news.google.com. When Brian writes, i read. It's been a long time though since i bothered to even look at the comments. And i used to read those "before" reading the story, if only to see if the story was worth my while. I had such trust in the insight and truthfulness of the commentators that i arranged my time around their insightful traffic reports. Reports that used to cover the full front of the war, and often came like bullets pointing exactly to where the real action was going down. On occasion i still go to LT looking for old comments and lost threads. It's a great resource, even if there is that sadness and wonder as to why it is no more. I've always thought that LT went the way of so many other great talkback sites. With armies of Redmond shills, toadies and boot licking lackies descending on the momentum of truth, taking on scripted personas, skillfully triangulating arguments, boxing the truth into discontinuous segues designed to push with unrelenting persistence the days talking points. Who has time for this kind of crap? You can't have an honest discussion with inherently dishonest people. People paid to be dishonest. Hired to bury the truth and discredit anyone who stands in their way. No doubt at some point in the distant future, digital archaeologist will dig up the LinuxToday web sight and wonder at the depths of this once great bazaar turned tar pit and quagmire of ideas, concepts and collaborative thinking where soldiers of a new dawn once marched into a battle they knew had to be won. They answered the call, even as the ground beneath their feet bubbled and churned, slowly sucking down efforts of such clarity and purpose that the sound itself became a clarion call all its own. The bell has gone silent not because it cracked, or the battle won. With muffled ringing it simply sunk into the mud of Microsoft's organized assault on the truth. In many ways the heyday of LT was like storming the Bastille. The soldiers of truth would show up, grab on to the daily battering ram, and slam forward with every ounce of strength they could muster. I think there's something to the thought that when the gateway finally burst open, and the soldiers of a new digital civilization rushed through the sudden breach in the emperors defenses, there was a sudden dispersion of interests. It was never about "Linux". It was always about the freedom to choose, the freedom to compete, the freedom to participate. It was about a level playing field where one's investment of time, money and passionate effort could not be summarily stripped and seized at the will of the emperor. It was about whether or not the emerging digital civilization of the Open Internet would be ruled by the few, or built and used by the many. It was about equal opportunity. About letting the best efforts have their shot. It was about an open marketplace where all the worlds citizens can trade and compete with a kaleidescope of products and services. IMHO, the gateway was breached. Microsoft could not hold. As the hordes of hungry netizens burst through, Microsoft soon enough found themselves fighting battles everywhere. Instead of an easily identified front, with Linux, FLOSS and Microsoft's determination to to stop these forces the focal point, we are now in the midst of a grand and sprawling civil war. There are important battles everywhere you look. “Hey there little red riding hood, you sure are looking good. You're everything a big bad wolf could want.” The empire is very much in disarray, but still in control of important choke points. And they will ruthlessly use those choke points to take back the future. Following the breach however, a new subtlety is called for. For me, the rush through the breach only meant that the darling of the Open Standards world, OpenDocument, would now move into the spotlight. It had to. ODF sits at an important inflection point, the choke hold of all choke holds, where Open Standards, Open XML Technologies, FLOSS, and the future of the Open Internet all meet. An inflection point that even has a geographical location – a field of battle where the great conflict will take place; the Windows desktop productivity environment. As the battering ram of Linux and FLOSS broke open the gate, and the great wall of the empire breached, the single most important point of vulnerability and collapse just happened to be right there in front of us. Close and within our grasp, but not quite the battle we expected. Everyone thought the next great battle would be between Linux desktops and Windows XP. Instead it turned out to be a battle between FLOSS cross platform applications and the Windows XP – Vista platform. A battle to win the hearts, minds, and keyboards of that huge legacy of Windows desktops not yet migrated to the XP-Vista generation. And ODF holds center stage in this massive, fight to the death conflict. This great herd of Windows users, 400 million strong, are the bulk of the monopoly base. They are the Win32 APi bound generation left behind. Left flapping in the wind for anyone to swoop down and take. And who left them behind? Microsoft did when they offered the monopoly base a choice between a rock and a hard place. Upgrade or die was the cry from Redmond. The emperor roared, "If you want to be part of the next great wave of collaborative computing, if you want a safe Internet to collaborate across, if you want all the collaborative features of a highly interoperable and seamlessly connected world, then you must rip out and replace everything with XP-Vista-.NET integrated (bolted) desktops, server suites, and devices”. I'm hardly alone among those who have noticed that the Windows XP-Vista-.NET pitch is the most Service Oriented Architecture adverse argument out there. The heart and soul of SOA connect everything with XML, and leverage the value of legacy systems for years to come. Rip out and replace is 180 degrees opposite SOA. Through the breach and into the battle of the legacy Windows desktop comes the OpenDocument ecosystem. What do we offer the great herd? We say there is no need to rip out and replace anything. And stop paying those ridiculous and enslaving license fees! Get off the upgrade treadmill. Take ownership of your information. Take command of your information processes. Download any number of Open Internet ready – SOA ready ODF applications and immediately become part of that next generation age of collaborative computing. The options are endless, the barriers to entry non existent. Just do it. I know our good friends in Redmond think ODF is a Microsoft killer lying in wait. They've pulled out all the stops, determined to do whatever it takes to stop the ODF ecotrain. It's Netscape, Java, Linux, and FLOSS wars all rolled into one. Most importantly though, ODF is not about desktop applications or systems API. It's below the application layer and beyond the platform specific systems calls and interlocking dependencies. ODF is all about “information”. It's about an Open Internet ready, highly structured XML language. A highly inter operable compound document format able to bridge the gap between application bound information and the next generation of collaborative web intelligent content, data and streaming media. It's everything that MSECMAXML is not. And it will work just as effectively on Windows 98 as on Linux Puppy, OSX, Solaris and Windows XP. If anything, ODF has reach. So we have this situation where fortress Microsoft has been breached. Linux and FLOSS were in my opinion, the battering ram. Microsoft had the luxury of massing their forces at the wall where the ramming was gaining steam. I think its fair to say that LinuxToday was an important part of that assault. Once the forces of good broke through though, different battles broke out all over. Microsoft re grouped, changed strategies and mounted counter attacks exactly where they felt most vulnerable, where they thought the line had to be held, and where they thought they might land a hail mary to save the day. OOOhhhh! Patents. Especially XML patents. Especially Open Internet protocols and interfaces based on XML, like Web Services and file formats. And DRM, where it's possible to muck up the entire marketplace of information technologies through the proliferation of digitally restrictive machines bolted into digitally restrictive file formats, all of which are entirely dependent on digitally restrictive operating systems and controlled application interfaces. “Grandma, what big ears you have”. “All the better to hear you with my dear”. Isn't it interesting that Microsoft is now trying to reach out to FLOSS and the rapidly growing FLOSS ecosystem of vendors, service providers, and users? Isn't it a trip that Microsoft is now reaching out to the standards communities, posturing that they participate in Open Standards too? The subtle difference however is that Microsoft isn't really participating or practicing good digital citizenship. What's changed is that Microsoft is no longer throwing down the hard and uncompromising ultimatum, “It's Bill's way or the highway”. Instead they are offering the MS alternatives to Open Standards, Open XML technologies, and Open Internet protocols and methods. Ever so disingenuously Chairman Bill asks, “Why not have two standards for everything? It's only fair.” They are offering alternatives to FLOSS, arguing, (as one might expect without regard for the truth, honest discussion, or any respect for transparency of process and fact), why their products are a better choice. Of course there is little hesitancy to play their ace card; the unrepentant, unapologetic, and indiscriminate use of reprehensible and often illegal business practices. Extortion, coercion, personal attacks, conversion of opportunity through often illegal contracts, political subterfuge and vast influence peddling – these remain the weapons of choice even as Microsoft postures to be an honest broker competing fairly in the open marketplace. This is a wild ride that never seems to end. Don't leave home without a barf bag. “Grandma, what big fangs you have!” Yes the war has changed. The enemy has dug in for the long haul, accommodating here, fighting like a cornered rat there. I think they are mostly buying time, trying to get Vista out the gate. And with it a whole new era of interlocking dependencies, protocols and interfaces designed to bolt the Open Internet to the Vista platform. Fear not though. Like a thief in the night, there is a great push taking place right now to free the great herd of Windows users not yet caught in the XP-Vista trap. The amazing thing is that an Open Internet ready “universal file format” is going to lead that push. And do so with the promise that, at the end of the day when the smoke clears, over 400 million digital citizens will be able to migrate to Linux without so much as a blip. With their information in ODF, they will be free to choose. Near the entire monopoly base will move into the age of collaborative computing, and do so without having to pay Chairman Bill his customary vig. ~ge~ |
| mph Feb 27, 2006 7:24 AM EDT |
Anyone remember what happened to Micheal Hall? He was the editor after the whole Tirebiter episode....and co-wrote a pretty good advocacy book on linux with Brian, IIRC. but I went away for a while and when I came back Brian was in charge of things. I transferred within Jupitermedia, LT's parent company, to take over a site that was then named CrossNodes and is now named Enterprise Networking Planet. I helped launch Serverwatch's Enterprise Unix Roundup (Brian does that now, too ... if we lived in the same town I'd have to be on guard against him driving off in my car, I think). LT's still in my RSS aggregator and still my preferred site for getting an overview of Linux news. It's a lot easier to talk about Linux on sites that aren't devoted solely to it these days. In 2000, when I wrote my first paid article about Linux, you pretty much had to get a gig with a "Linux site" to be a Linux writer. It was still pretty niche-y and a lot of the mainstream sites weren't always putting their best talent on the Linux beat. On ENP, six years later, I run at least one Linux-related article a week, sometimes two, on a budget that only allows for two features a week. No one in the editorial chain blinks or wonders if that's too much. In fact, the writer I had in the bullpen whom I considered my "Windows person" ended up defecting to a shop where she could work with Red Hat EL and didn't want to do anymore Windows stuff for me. On Enterprise Unix Roundup we made it a practice to routinely mock articles asking "provocative" questions like "Is Linux ready for the enterprise?" Of course it is ... no one who's serious or engaged thinks that's a useful question anymore. The only people asking it are sleepwalking instead of reporting. |
| IGnatiusTFoobar Dec 07, 2006 12:14 PM EDT |
Ok, it seems that I'm almost a year late to this party. I'm bored today and did a Google search on my name, and came up here. I'm flattered to have been mentioned by name as one of the "old guard" of Linux Today. The first guess was the correct one -- at least it was for me. The obnoxious and relentless blast of Microsoft lies that almost always plaster the advertising panel of Linux Today are the main reason I left. LXer replaced Linux Today as my primary Linux news site. And I'm happy about it. -- Art Cancro, aka IGnatius T Foobar [ http://uncensored.citadel.org/~ajc ] [ http://www.citadel.org ] |
| dcparris Dec 07, 2006 4:05 PM EDT |
We're just grateful you're here! |
| DarrenR114 Dec 14, 2006 5:05 AM EDT |
I started following LT way back in the late 90's - the earliest post I can find for me is January 1999. It seems that may be as far back as the archives go - because I *know* I posted earlier. I was/am not as prolific as Dean Pannell or Nicholas Donovan, but I enjoyed being part of that "community". Martin Vermeer, Dinotrac, Nicholas Donovan - I miss them all, which is why I stubbornly kept watching LT. As of last night, no more. LT's changed a lot since 1998, and not for the better. Nowadays it is choked by the fanatical idealogues. The two most prolific posters there now are often irrational and just plain wrong. When they are corrected, they label the opposing post as a troll. In short the character of LT posts has gone to the dogs. I didn't mind the MS ads so much - I pragmatically looked at it from 2 points. First, it is basically MS throwing good money after bad - there is no way that Linux Users would be convinced by their claptrap. Second, it makes it convenient to know what the enemy is up to: I don't have to bother to visit their site, because they're coming to me. |
| swbrown Dec 14, 2006 5:20 PM EDT |
LinuxToday turned into crap a long time ago. It was already on its way out when many of the stories would fail a simple grep test for relevance, which was long before the Get The Facts nonsense. I used to post under the moniker 'Gene Scott' for anyone interested in seeing if I flamed you 7+ years ago. ;) |
| dinotrac Dec 14, 2006 8:00 PM EDT |
>I used to post under the moniker 'Gene Scott' for anyone interested in seeing if I flamed you 7+ years ago. ;) Hmmmm. I could go back and do the research, or, I could simply assume that you did. Methinks the odds are with yes... |
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