Democratic Search Engines?
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| NoDough Jan 26, 2006 12:30 PM EDT |
So, the big three search engines are all contributing to the repression of freedom. What alternatives do we have? |
| crusadingknight Jan 26, 2006 12:43 PM EDT |
http://www.mozdex.com/ should *someday* be a usable replacement, but for now is quite limited in results. (It can't even find my full name, which is bizarre... whereas google returns pages of hits.) BTW, you mean "Unrestricted search engines." Democratic means rule by the people, and democracy allows repression by consent. |
| golem Jan 26, 2006 12:47 PM EDT |
My first impulse is to agree, but the issue is not really that simple. If Google refused to cave in, what would it accomplish? Google would be replaced in China by those companies willing to cave in, and we know who those are. |
| NoDough Jan 26, 2006 12:56 PM EDT |
"BTW, you mean "Unrestricted search engines." Democratic means rule by the people, and democracy allows repression by consent." Quite so. |
| NoDough Jan 26, 2006 1:09 PM EDT |
I was just looking for alternatives. I know that AltaVista is owned by Yahoo. Not sure what the heritage is for some of these others... http://channels.netscape.com/search http://www.alltheweb.com http://www.ask.com http://search.aol.com http://www.hotbot.com ...and what was that engine that used to advertise on television with the black retriever? |
| salparadise Jan 26, 2006 1:31 PM EDT |
Well, there's Ask Jeeves for a start. There's also http://www.vivisimo.com
This is an interesting search engine because it clusters some results into groups contextually as well as the usual "page after page of links". A straight search for the term "linux" on vivisimo returns 90.2 million results with 206 "clustered" in a tree type representation on the left of the page. The same term on ask jeeves returns 71.8 million results. The last time I looked on google (from my phone on the bus whilst bored - within the last 10 days) returned 381 million. The question is, how many million pages do you need in your results? |
| Inhibit Jan 26, 2006 2:16 PM EDT |
42. Give or take a milion. I don't know if this is bad or not, honestly. Google isn't going to change the Chinese government by not going into the market. As far as I can tell, only the Chinese can do that. And with the current "stability at all costs" most other governments are enforcing on their neighbors I don't know how much that'll be possible. So is Google really aiding the opression? |
| dotmil Jan 26, 2006 2:37 PM EDT |
I don't understand all the uproar about this. People are more than willing to buy Chinese made products, support other companies that do business in China, etc. All of those products and companies operate within the framework of the Chinese government, and all serve to benefit it in one way or another. However, when Google decides to operate within those same guidelines, everyone gets their panties in a bunch. If you're going to boycott Google, how much sense does that make while you sit at your Dell computer using peripherals that were likely made, at least in part, in China! |
| gryphen Jan 26, 2006 3:00 PM EDT |
A9, an Amazon product, is a great search engine http://a9.com/
The black retriever is Lycos http://www.lycos.com/
Teoma is a product of Ask Jeeves http://teoma.com/
HotBot is a Lycos product and also uses Ask Jeeves or Google search parameters Overture Services, Inc. is a Yahoo! company http://www.content.overture.com/d/ AlltheWeb's index (provided by Yahoo!) includes billions of web pages AltaVista, a business of Overture Services, Inc. Search.com is a CNET product http://www.search.com/ Beaucoup! is another alternative http://www.beaucoup.com/ infospace owns Dogpile http://www.dogpile.com/, WebCrawler http://www.webcrawler.com/, MetaCrawler http://www.metacrawler.com/ |
| stephanfeb Jan 26, 2006 5:08 PM EDT |
Boycotting Google over this is stupid. If you have a problem with China or it's policies take it up with the US Government who is happy to do business with China, and who is even happier to allow Google to do business with China. I suggest you boycott your government as well by moving to Canada. Sig. |
| jimf Jan 26, 2006 6:01 PM EDT |
I agree with stephan, but, don't think that moving to Canada is any remedy... |
| salparadise Jan 26, 2006 10:36 PM EDT |
Isn't it nice and convenient the way people always manage to find a way to keep doing business with crooks, thugs and liars? How principled we all are until those principles mean making life a little harder, and then it's suddenly "principles? what principles?".
Google said "we will not compromise with the Chinese Gov". I didn't ask them to say that, they said it of their own free will. Now they've gone back on it.
Oh I see, Google doesn't care about the Internet Dissidents, now in prison, because Google, M$ and Yahoo helped the Chinese Gov put them there?
And I'm supposed to roll over and say "ok"? I've been growing uneasy about Google for a while. No one company gets to be the gatekeeper to all human knowledge. That is a recipe for disaster. Who appointed these people to this role? They're a search engine not an educational establishment or a library. The point being that Google just showed precisely how far they can be trusted as gatekeepers to human knowledge. Google will censor - byebye google. I don't really care whether you join me in this or not, I wasn't calling for a boycot, I just thought something needed saying. And as I moved to Linux partly from a burning sense of outrage at Microsofts behaviour so I'll likewise leave Google. Because it matters. |
| NoDough Jan 27, 2006 5:48 AM EDT |
"Because it matters." Well said. |
| stephanfeb Jan 28, 2006 6:01 AM EDT |
I hope you start inspecting all your PC equipment for those pesky "Made in China" stickers, and prompty refuse to economically empower those "crooks, thugs and liars". I think that your disappointment stems from having thought of Google as this great champion of human knowledge, when they've always only ever been a great search engine company. Cheers Stephan |
| tarvid Jan 28, 2006 6:40 AM EDT |
I added LXer to my Bookmarks Toolbar Folder as an alternative to Slashdot and (much worse) Linux Today. After reading this article I added Vivisimo to my search engines in the Firefox search box. It does matter. |
| salparadise Jan 28, 2006 8:12 AM EDT |
The companies that outsource hardware manufacturing to China are not involved in active censorship. They're taking advantage of the lack of unions and comparatively cheap labour costs. This is morally unsavoury and should be discouraged but it's not quite the same as actively censoring the truth for an already oppressed people.Quoting: I think that your disappointment stems from having thought of Google as this great champion of human knowledge, No, I never saw Google as anything other than a search engine. Society itself should be the champion of human knowledge. We seem to have lost our way somewhat though. |
| gryphen Jan 28, 2006 2:07 PM EDT |
While I agree that it demonstrates questionable judgement on the part of Google to reverse their position concerning China, I would also like to point out that change is only going to happen in China when her citizens have had 'enough'. The Cold War wasn't 'won' by the United States having nothing to do with the former Soviet Union. Government reform comes about when the governed decide to make change. I believe that those citizens benefit from exposure to new and better ideas, which they may come across when listening to the radio or reading stories on the internet. Granted China is attempting to censor what information the masses are exposed to, but as we all know. If someone really wants something, they'll figure out a way to get it. As an example consider how frequently hackers break the encryption codes used by DVD's. Thankfully here in America we have the ability to make more choices for ourselves. And I certainly applaud anyone who thoughtfully exercises that right. All to often people just blindly accept whatever comes their way. Bottomline: Google is a business. And the Chinese market is one that will only add to the billions Larry Page and Sergey Brin have already. As I previously posted, there are numerous other search engines that utilize Googles technology. Do you also intend to shun those companies? In which case I think you'll find that your search results will be severly limited. |
| jdixon Jan 28, 2006 7:27 PM EDT |
OK, allow me to propose an alternative viewpoint. Google is stuck between a choice of two evils: No Google search for the Chinese population, or a censored search. They've decided that the censored search is the lesser of the two evils. This is their public statement, and we have no real reason to doubt it. Note that they are not denying that the fact that they make money off the deal is a nice side benefit. Now, if I were doing this, I would have the Chinese government tell me exactly what they wanted censored, and exactly how they wanted it censored. Then I would do that, and nothing more. Everything would have to be explicitly defined by them. Then I would carefully document exactly what was being done, in servers outside China, so that the Internet at large could do their best to work around the censorship. I doubt Google is going to do this, as it's too obvious. But it seems equally obvious to me that they will be doing their very best to comply with the Chinese authorities requirements, while also subverting them as much as possible. Why do I think this. Well first, they publicly stated what they were doing, which is a lot better than Microsoft or Yahoo ever did. This gives us the warning we need to begin the work needed to subvert the censorship. Secondly, the founders of Google are human, and they make mistakes, but they have not yet done anything to show that they do not share the values of the FOSS community. They appear to be good people, let's give them the benefit of a doubt until we see how things work out. |
| salparadise Jan 28, 2006 11:01 PM EDT |
"but they have not yet done anything to show that they do not share the values of the FOSS community" They've taken Open Source and made billions out of it, produced some fine software which isn't available for Open Source users and are now busy playing catch me if you can with repressive regimes. That's not quite what I thought the values of the FOSS Community were. |
| gryphen Jan 29, 2006 3:14 AM EDT |
I share your sentiments exactly Sal. It seems like every month, week, even days that we hear about Google doing yet something else for an Operating System they claim to disdain. And yet they can't seem to find the time or resources to produce something valid or beneficial for the Linux Desktop which their own developers use for their desktop PCs. Makes ya wonder... do the developers even use the apps they create? |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!