anti American or anti Microsoft?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| jimf Nov 14, 2005 7:05 AM EDT |
Just wondering how this breaks down? There are certainly reasons for either. |
| r_a_trip Nov 14, 2005 8:43 AM EDT |
GNU/Linux is also based on American technology. So it is not a matter of anti-Americanism. It looks like people are fed up with large oppressive corporations, peddling expensive but mediocre wares. Since Microsoft is a large oppressive corporation, which peddles expensive but mediocre wares, it is feeling the abandonment by its customerbase. |
| mvermeer Nov 14, 2005 9:09 AM EDT |
But for the Chinese, it is really a case of fear of the Americans (i.e., the US administration) spying on them, and perhaps in a crisis turning the switch on Windows, through the secret back door that doesn't exist as we all know... So here the distinction is moot. And the Chinese (regime, but I suspect citizens would not feel differently) may well be both paranoid and right. And don't think it's only a problem for totalitarian regimes: when there are billions of trade profits at stake, there are no friends or allies. |
| dinotrac Nov 14, 2005 9:18 AM EDT |
r_a_trip ... You can't rule out anti-Americanism as a factor, though I think Martin characterized it a little better. GNU/Linux may be inspired by American Technology (Unix), but it is an international effort, originated by a Finnlander. No need to fear The Great Imperialist. |
| tadelste Nov 14, 2005 9:25 AM EDT |
I have ventured out of the States. If Microsoft wasn't part of the US State department, anti-Americanism would go down 50% and I AM NOT JOKING. Microsoft is a virus in the American political system. Their practices overseas should at least require a hearing of the Congress under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Spin it how you want but you're convincing yourself - not the people who hate us. |
| hkwint Nov 14, 2005 9:38 AM EDT |
I agree with Tom Adelstein, and let me tell you why: It's all because of the connection between US (even EU) politics and Microsoft. Let me give you a short list: Today, there was the story about MS pushing the US government to bully the EU. Before that, we had MS as the biggest sponsor of the Ireland-Chairmanship of the EU, and for 'some' reason, Ireland became one of the biggest proponents of software-patents. McCreevy, then the financial minister of Ireland, is now EuroCommissioner of the intern market in the EU, and for 'some' reason, again the biggest proponent of software patents. In countries like Honduras, Guatemala etc, software pirates (can) go to jail, because of some laws, these countries probably made under pressure of the BSA, see http://linuxtoday.com/developer/2000021100305OP Another story from a few days ago; after Mass. chose ODF, Microsoft turned in their political weight to try to stop it. Melinda Gates is in the board of directors of the Washington Post (though that doesn't have to mean anything, it's just suspicious). In The Netherlands, it leaked out, the government had 'secret', closed meetings with Microsoft, and no other companies were allowed to make an offer. Then, the most important to China etc., is the threatening with the WTO of Steve Ballmer, related to the software patents. It was also on another newssite, that it was IBM, Google and MS not willing to hand over the DNS-root servers to the UN, therefore lobbying with the US administration to keep it at the ICANN. And this are only the stories I heard of... So, the most important fact I like to stress: Anti-Americanism (as also seen in France for example) isn't directed against all Americans, but against the (Bush) administration, and large companies are part of that administration, since they payed to get that administration elected. |
| tadelste Nov 14, 2005 9:47 AM EDT |
To built on your points and I appreciate your point of view from across the pond: I don't hate George Bush. In fact, in Texas (not at the ranch) but with his personal residence, he's been a neighbor of mine for 20 years. We ran at the same Aerobics Center. Around here, he's one of the guys and well liked personally. But his love affair with Microsoft has turned me from friend to foe politically. And hkwint, you didn't even get to the tip of the Iceburg. Try lobbying in foreign legislatures, bringing a law suit against the head of IT in Brazil, using a 180 million slush fund to stop Microsoft ... I will not say they bribe officials because I do not know that for sure. We're still nowhere close to the tip. |
| henke54 Nov 14, 2005 9:57 AM EDT |
[quote] from mvermeer : But for the Chinese, it is really a case of fear of the Americans (i.e., the US administration) spying on them, and perhaps in a crisis turning the switch on Windows, through the secret back door that doesn't exist as we all know...[/unquote] u mean this perhaps ? --> "A third key?! But according to two witnesses attending the conference, even Microsoft's top crypto programmers were astonished to learn that the version of ADVAPI.DLL shipping with Windows 2000 contains not two, but three keys. Brian LaMachia, head of CAPI development at Microsoft was "stunned" to learn of these discoveries, by outsiders." http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/5263/1.html "The European Parliament reports have sparked Continent-wide anger. Questions have been raised by officials in Denmark, Germany, Norway, and Holland, while the Swedish government has launched an investigation into whether Swedish companies have been victims of covert NSA surveillance. In Italy, a Rome deputy district attorney has opened an inquiry to determine whether NSA activities violate Italian privacy law. More important, perhaps, the reports encouraged France and Germany to lift their restrictions on the use and sale of strong encryption software, which Washington has been trying to limit." http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pipermail/ukcrypto/1999-Se... "Germany's Bundiswehr is banning Microsoft software (and presumably other major American software packages) from use in critical environments due to concern over "back doors" suspected to have been placed for the use of U.S. spy agencies, particularly the NSA (National Security Agency). China, last year, declared Linux, particularly the home grown Red Flag Linux, the official operating system for Chinese government and commerce due to similar security fears." http://www.aaxnet.com/news/M010318.html |
| tadelste Nov 14, 2005 12:40 PM EDT |
Preaching to the choir! |
| jimf Nov 14, 2005 1:11 PM EDT |
Well, all of your comments are interesting and overall pretty much in line with what I've gotten previously. I might not assign the MS factor a 50% concern, but it has to be really significant. China on the other hand is a whole different animal. I think it's obvious that China doesn't give a damn about GPL, MS, or any other licensing. That is totally irrelevant to them. From what I've seen China will use only the parts of foreign business, America or otherwise, to further what it perceives as its own best interests. Considering that China is more than likely to be a huge influence in any future world, they will have a huge influence on the way business is done in the world. And, because of their rather paranoid and controlling orientation, I don't see them doing anything real great for FOSS. On the other hand, I think that MS is at real risk here. That dragon may end up burning their ass royally. |
| hkwint Nov 14, 2005 1:37 PM EDT |
Quoting: China doesn't give a damn about GPL, MS, or any other licensing. That is totally irrelevant to them. From what I've seen China will use only the parts of foreign business, America or otherwise, to further what it perceives as its own best interests. Hey, you accidentally exchanged "China" with "MS" in the phrase above! |
| tadelste Nov 14, 2005 4:15 PM EDT |
If China wants to become a member of the World Trade Organization, they better give a damn about GPL. |
| jimf Nov 14, 2005 4:54 PM EDT |
tadelste: of course they will say they give a damn ;-) And, yes hkwint, the phrase will work either way. |
| mvermeer Nov 14, 2005 8:15 PM EDT |
> I might not assign the MS factor a 50% concern Hmmm, it might not be exaggerated after all. Tom may be right. You see, it's about presence in-your-face. Here in Finland, e.g., you can pretty much lead your daily life without even noticing much that the USA exists. Sure, there are McDonalds, but even they are local franchises using local meat. And you don't have to go there if you don't want to: there is also a big Finnish hamburger chain in what is a razor-sharp competitive market. You can't escape Microsoft in the same way. (Or you couldn't easily, until fairly recently. Many still cannot.) The mood has changed. Earlier in the 1990's people put up with this and didn't mind too much, taking it humoristically or philosophically (is there a difference?). Many even admired MS and Gates for their success. All that has changed. The name of the change: George W. Bush. |
| salparadise Nov 14, 2005 10:20 PM EDT |
I really don't understand the connection between Bush and Microsoft. The main reason America is hated is due to the grossly huge number of widows the world over, made so by American Foreign Policy. Microsoft were despised and feared long before Bush came along. Bush has merely added the turd to the top of the cake. (And made a sauce of blood and tears to spread upon it). And when it comes to China, no one will give a wet slap for the GPL. If they're prepared to overlook China's human rights record, then they'll overlook the GPL too. |
| dinotrac Nov 15, 2005 12:14 AM EDT |
Gosh Sal - Then everybody must be despised -- The Russians, the Chinese, the Germans, the English, the French, the Japanese, the Koreans.... Hmmm. Now that I think about it, you may be right. Plenty of hate to go around. |
| salparadise Nov 15, 2005 12:27 AM EDT |
Exactly. What America is doing now has been done by more or less every nation on earth at some point in it's history. There's only one lesson to draw from it. Every empire/nation/edifice built on blood and slavery falls. Every one. We have to stop being so uselessly hopeful and start being honest and realistic. We need more than a change of faces. We need a change of heart. And we have to keep calling out "liar" and "murderer" until the lying and the murdering stops. Otherwise we might as well join in. |
| salparadise Nov 15, 2005 1:42 AM EDT |
Look, you musn't take any of this personally.
You just need to understand that as it was in Stalinist Russia, where to criticise policy was to be labeled "anti-Soviet", that the same mindset is once again in control. To criticise American policy is to be anti-American or to criticise Israeli policy is to be labeled "anti-semitic". When in fact neither are true. It's just a way of stifling criticism. A sure way of knowing that current policy is wrong is when you are no longer allowed to criticise it. Most people are not so stupid as to lump every citizen of America in with the current administration. However, if the reaction from ordinary Americans is one of sneering dismissal when America is criticised then that "lumping in" begins to take hold. I am fiercely critical of the UK government. I think they are dispicable. And you can say that to my face and I will heartily agree with you. And you can point out to me all the sorry, shameful, dirty things that have been done by the UK and I will agree with all that is true. I suffer no illusions. Because in no way, shape, size or form are the current bunch of murdering clowns reflective of your "average UK citizen". Anyone who defends them stands by them and anyone who stands by them is guilty of their crimes. Under this yolk we groan and weep. Horrified by the damage that has been done, and continues to be done, to innocent people in the name of freedom. What an abomination! And after all that crap about liberating Iraq from tyranny and the need for a robust human rights system they go and roll over for China, and ignore Zimbabwe and Darfur and so on and so on and so on... We will reap the bitter fruit from this long after the perpetrators have passed from public view. |
| mvermeer Nov 15, 2005 2:32 AM EDT |
> I really don't understand the connection between Bush and Microsoft. The main reason America is hated is due to the grossly huge number of widows the world over, made so by American Foreign Policy. True, but irrelevant. The Windows monopoly has been around only for two presidents. While Clinton had his flaws, Bush is in a class of his own, as you must admit... The only "connection" is that he has succeeded in rubbing in the dangers of American monopoly power, political or commercial, also for ordinary people (non- direct victims) to see. |
| dinotrac Nov 15, 2005 9:31 AM EDT |
Martin, Martin, Martin... When it comes to flaws, nobody takes a back seat to Chirac. In fact, nobody even gets in the car. |
| tadelste Nov 15, 2005 11:19 AM EDT |
I don't know about this widows the world over comment. Hating Bush is highly overrated. Amercia is not an empire. That's academic. Now, monopolies - that's entirely another thing. England was accused of being a Colonial Power and all that and it was the East India Tea Company that got the king to committ troops and engage in bloodshed. The influence of monopolies on government is a parable. Does anyone think that the English people would have condoned the butchery of people in the 13 colonies if it were up to them? For one thing, they don't even mention Lord Cornwalis in your history books. Yet he turned the ground red with blood over here. We didn't have any widows because he butchered the women and children too and burned the homes down. He conscribed black people into his army even when they were not slaves. He march from Flordia to New York and left a trail of blood, burned farmlands and the stench of death filled the air. They even filled churches with residents of towns and burned them alive not allowing them to escape. They especially liked to find weddings going on because they didn't have to round up the town folk. Would you like me to hold you responsible for that? Amercians do not like or encourage war. But some elements in America do and they are the same as the people in any country that make up the Military Industrial Complex. It's a mentality and that mentaility is not confined to boundaries. Now write an article about Linux and I'll forgive all of you. |
| dinotrac Nov 15, 2005 11:29 AM EDT |
Y'know Tom, you've managed to bring it back to Linux in a most unusual way... Gandhi absolutely relied on the civilization and compassion of the English people in his campaign to rid India of England's yoke. For that matter, the American civil rights movement did the same -- really picking up steam when American stomachs were turned by some of the horrible events taking place "below the line." In Linux world, we sometimes get a siege mentality, convinced the world is against us when much of it really isn't paying much attention. Our greatest hope, at least if we are right in our beliefs, is to make people see their own stake in what's going on and to act in their own interests and self images. |
| michaelcole Nov 15, 2005 6:36 PM EDT |
Its not the Americans or the M$ as such that is hated.. It is the Bull headiness that is hated.. It is like the ADB - IMF - World Bank - USAID - US Government and M$.. All these have one thing in common... They tell you what to do... This is what is hated.. Koreans want korean software and thats that.. China wants freedom and ability to change..(Freedom in all manners and that freedom includes the GPL) South Africa wants many languages supported.. Now what is wrong with that.. Nothing.. If you push someone enough into a corner they will fight back and Linux gives others the ability to throw a punch and land it where it hurts the US$.. How many billions of dollars does M$ get from overseas.. US Exchange rate anyone... The US government will protect M$.... |
| TxtEdMacs Nov 15, 2005 7:13 PM EDT |
Quoting:"China wants freedom ... " If you are saying: for the CCP only, then I agree. |
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