Don't get Sun burned.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| cjcox Jun 14, 2005 7:52 AM EDT |
OpenSolaris... hip hip hooray!! Nothing has changed. Sun fully believes that GPL code is detrimental to ALL BUSINESS. They are committed to seeing its destruction. As a strategic Microsoft partner, their goal is to eliminate ALL versions of Linux from the corporate workplace (where, they believe it is doing daily HARM to those businesses). Now... is everyone ready to help them in their goal of destroying GNU, the GPL and Linux in the workplace?? Ready to support Microsoft's efforts in the enterprise in a real and tangible way. Feel free to sign up. McNealy told the Open Source Business Conference attendees that the GPL is an example of "predatory economic imperialism" Another of my favorites: "We love Linux, we love community development and we love open source," McNealy told The Register in an interview. "We just don't like Red Hat." Another favorite.. this one from Schwartz: "Red Hat is more in charge right now of Linux in North America than Linus is." Their reason is because Red Hat is a "FOR PROFIT" company. Yes... Sun supports Linux as long as people aren't paying any company for it. Or.. simply put, Linux is fine as a hobbiest OS... just get it OUT of the enterprise (because that's where Microsoft+Sun belong). Today, Red Hat and Microsoft are publicly and unabashedly out to DESTROY Red Hat.... however, it CAN'T stop there. At some point, they'll have to take out Novell, Mandrake, etc. Sun and Microsoft are betting that the corporate enterprise WILL NOT turn to totally free Linux (e.g. a Debian variant or Fedora...etc.) because most businesses need to leverage the expertise of their supplier, and volunteer labor isn't contracted to focus on a particular business's needs. If you're happy with this... by all means... get OpenSolaris and start HELPING Sun AND Microsoft out. For your efforts you'll get a big load of nothing... Sun and Microsoft will be the sole beneficiaries. In Sun and Microsoft's perfect world, everything will roll back to the way it was in the eighties... proprietary "open protocol" solutions with somebody's registered trademark stamped on it, no GPL, and a check in the mail to Sun. For you older folks... you should all remember Sun's attempt to take over the world in the late eighties. Of course, then the partner was AT&T... this time they have chosen Microsoft. Nothing has changed... same old Sun. Now, where's my sun screen? |
| tuxchick Jun 14, 2005 10:52 AM EDT |
It is truly amazing how blind these beetles be- or perhaps it is not blindness, but that they have the hearts of robber barons. Here we have Linux, GNU, and thousands upon thousands of successful F/OSS projects that businesses like Sun are more than happy to glom and make use of. So what is the problem- is it that they simply wish to take and not give back, or do they truly not understand how all this great software came into existence in the first place? "killing the golden goose" and all that. |
| sbergman27 Jun 14, 2005 2:28 PM EDT |
While I am not terribly excited about OpenSolaris, I see this as a positive development. (This seems to be my day for seeing things that way, which is quite odd because it has been an otherwise absolutely ROTTEN day. :-() Sun is doing the right thing. They are moving in the right direction. No, it's not released under the GPL. But CDDL is an approved OSS licesnse. Their "patent promise" only applies to the OpenSolaris code, but it is still a move in the right direction. Personally, I think Sun is in for one hell of a disappointment when it comes to fostering a developer community around OpenSolaris. But that is largely due to their statements and actions, a few of which cjcox has just reminded us. (Not to mention competition from Linux and the BSD's.) Once they see that people are not flocking to their project, the pressure will be on them to rectify the situation. They will either become a real member of the community or their project will fail, and in a very public way. The future is ours, my friends. |
| cjcox Jun 14, 2005 4:01 PM EDT |
sbergman27, you'll just have to trust me when I say this move by Sun is the biggest Trojan horse ever. Nothing they have done is a move in the "right" direction. These guys have agendas just as large as their partner, Microsoft. Their goal is complete domination... you can call them a benevolent dicator I suppose. I don't want true Open Source (tm) provided by the loving hands of Sun Microsystems (tm) a Microsoft Partner (tm). They're playing for keeps here. They have a strange sense of what "community" means. However, if you believe that "community" means, Community (tm) a Sun Microsystems (tm) and Microsoft (tm) product... then you'll have no problem with Sun's "community". We're talking about Sun and Microsoft trying to own a substantial portion of the datacenter and locking down using Sun/Microsoft developed "open" protocols and DRM products. Everything will be "open"... it will just be the solution provided by Sun Microsystems and Microsoft. The GNU and Linux community (notice the lack of quotation marks) is free to develop whatever they want, then when those people grow up and want to particpate in the datacenter, they'll switch over to the Sun and Microsoft products. If you don't think they'll be successful in their attempt at doing this, just remember that people can be VERY stupid. I know a lot of Sys Admins that sell their souls out daily to Microsoft (the ones who REALLY own their datacenters). Never underestimate the stupidity of a man. GNU (and not all of those quasi-free licenses) provides true IP protection and durability of ideas and code. Just remember that one day Sun and Microsoft will pull it all back in and what will you do then? Did we not learn anything from Larry McVoy and Bitkeeper?? Of course.. I do agree with you that they may not get the type of "community" they wanted. Could all be just a simple marketing (jedi) mind trick. But I disagree that Sun will allow their "community" to turn into some kind of newly freed Fedora like thing. I don't think they'll "rectify" the situation... to them, there's no situation to rectify, nor will there ever be one. |
| sbergman27 Jun 14, 2005 5:22 PM EDT |
CJCox, I understand what you mean by "Trojan Horse". I agree. It is a "Trojan Horse", in their view. It's also a risk, and a move in the right direction. Sun is sinking. (I absolutely refuse to use silly metaphors like "The Sun is Setting". ;-) Yes, Sun is now allied with MS. Sort of. But not completely. (Don't forget how much McNealy HATES Gates, and I really don't think that HATE is too strong a word.) If they were totally interested in becoming a Microsoft partner, they would not still be contributing so much to OpenOffice.org. (Note to OO.org developers: Do expect Sun to have to cut you loose soon, and prepare for that eventuality. It's not the end of the world. In fact, it did wonders for Mozilla when their benefactor did the same. But do prepare.) Have some confidence in our arguments for the OSS development model. OSS development has real advantages. Also, cjcox, expect that it is going to take a while to get to where we want to go; Expect a few SCO-like potholes in the road to Total World Domination. Take care, Steve Bergman |
| tuxchick Jun 14, 2005 7:05 PM EDT |
This whole Sun saga is fascinating to me because it's like a Greek tragedy- you have folks like us on the sidelines for the chorus. You have the mouthy, hubris-filled protagonists in McNealy and Schwartz, who just can't seem to keep their stories straight or their mouths shut. Then there are the minor characters, like why TF does the Sun board of directors keep McNealy?? The company has been in a steep downhill slide for years. Then there is all the great talent that works for Sun, or whatever fraction of them remains, and a still-loyal core of users who remember the glory days and wish they would come back. I don't see OpenSolaris taking off, simply because it smells too much like Sun courting slave labor. But it will be fun to watch. |
| cjcox Jun 15, 2005 8:23 AM EDT |
My vote is that this purely a marketing ploy at this juncture. The Microsoft + Sun venture (which is NOT a joke and is FULL on, dedicated ... I mean were talking about millions and millions of dollars exchanging as both of these companies work torward their goal.. the elimination of Linux from the workplace). I can assure you that for the next 9 years, there will be no "hatred" between McNealy and Gates... only the deepest love (it's love by contract... they don't have a choice). Do some research and you'll see just how deep the relationship and how committed a relationship Sun and Microsoft have entered into. Also.. please don't confuse OSS with free software. There's a big difference. OpenSolaris is pure OSS... most of GNU/Linux+ is free (thankfully). It really doesn't matter now if "Sun has been in a steep downhill slide" anymore. Sun has massive amounts of cash on hand... it would take many, many years to kill them off even if they didn't make a dime. BUT.. please remember that they also have access to the entire bankroll of Microsoft. If Microsoft still feels they are necessary (and contractually, they have to believe this for 9 more years), they'll fund them to keep them afloat or they'll acquire them (unlikely though). Crystal ball: I still feel a Sun/Dell thing happening. Just as Sun needed AMD, Sun and Dell need each other. Dell's love for Microsoft makes it a good fit. HP's love of Intel is their undoing (I know.. HP does AMD and Dell doesn't but, HP is sinking... and I mean sinking! way too much into Itanium). Sun's AMD designs have NO rivals in the industry. I haven't made up my mind about their new machines yet (you all will see them soon enough). I will admit, their new designs also have NO rival... just not sure I agree with everything they did. Another interesting statement out of Sun is that their new hardware won't play nice with IBM... gotta love all of this! IMHO, this would require that Sun not play with Linux... something they won't let happen unless they scrap their HW business model. Which... could lead to the idea of selling just the HW side to Dell.. hmmm.. that's feasible, but the software game isn't where it's at right now... so I think if there's a Sun+Dell+Microsoft(MS as a partner) future it will likely be done in whole. |
| number6x Jun 15, 2005 8:55 AM EDT |
cjcox, For Microsoft the Sun 'partnership' is a win/win situation. If MS can get Sun to expend time and money fighting Linux and estranging itself from the open source community Microsoft benefits, even if no real damage is done to Linux. How? If Sun wastes time and money tilting at Linux windmills, that's time and money that Sun won't use to improve its own products. Keeping a wedge between Sun and the Open Source community helps to ensure that Sun, a competitor of Microsoft, won't be able to tap into that community to increase its competition with Microsoft. Microsoft is leading Sun down a rosy path towards Sun's own demise, and MS is making sure that Sun believes its all Linuxs' fault. Microsoft's whole purpose is to destroy Sun. Get Sun to waste time and money. Make sure Sun is alienated from the open source community that can really coexist with them ( Is there any room in the Microsoft shop for Sun servers? Does Microsoft Support Sun technology like java?) If this causes some damage to the open source community, thats good for Microsoft too. If Microsoft can spin the story so that Linux gets the blame for destroying Sun, that's good for Microsoft too. But in the end, Microsoft will have ensured the demise of one of its competitors, Sun Microsystems. That is Microsoft's goal. |
| cjcox Jun 15, 2005 2:23 PM EDT |
Both Sun and Microsoft are prepping for the battle which will ensue after their divorce in 9 years. Sun, as usual, believe they will have the upper hand in that battle. I say... look at the track records and you decide which company has more experience in destroying other companies. Obviously, the one that needs to win (between those 2) is Sun... but Sun will find that Microsoft can retaliate in ways that will make you wish you had never been born. So I agree (sort of)... but Sun really does believe that all planets revolve around them. Microsoft will teach them that the world is really flat and that the universe revolves about Redmond. But it will be done just because they can... if Microsoft finds it to be cost prohibitive to remove Sun from the picture, I'm sure they'll have no problem with them trying to eek out a living on their own. If Sun ever becomes a threat (unlikely), then they'll be dealt with. That is a long term goal.. but for now Linux is on Microsoft's perceived threat chart, Sun IS NOT. They have ever declining potential of making inroads into Microsoft's space... partnership or not. Microsoft has NEVER viewed Sun as true competitor or threat... never. Linux is the threat, Microsoft is using Sun (who also perceives Linux as a threat) to help them in taking care of the little penguin problem. Once they are successful (he he)... they'll probably just go their separate ways. Reality is that Microsoft will pursue one of their other paths (they created many during the potential of a breakup during the anti-trust talks) if Linux continues to make strides inspite of this joint effort with Sun. Sun will seek refuge in a merger or possibly sell out to somebody like Dell. Microsoft and Sun have similar beliefs... but Sun's plan is a bit simpler: 1. Make oodles of money. if that fails.... 2. Make oodles of money for the Execs and maybe some board friendlies. (this one is quite likely if Linux wins... and arguably it already has, just some can't see it.) barring that... 3. Scorch the earth (destroy all intrinsic Sun value) (we won't see this unless something really, really bad happens inside of Sun) |
| number6x Jun 16, 2005 4:24 AM EDT |
cjcox, Yes you are right. Microsoft would like to remove Sun from the playing field. If that's not possible, then marginalize them into some corner like Apple. Sun will probably exist, generate profit for itself and a little for MS. Sun does have one thing Microsoft wants more than anything else. Credibility in the datacenter. People trust Sun for very large scale enterprise level applications. Sun has a proven track record. Not as 'proven' as IBM, but they have a good solid reputation. Microsoft would like to be considered worthy of true enterprise level dependability. |
| cjcox Jun 16, 2005 11:30 AM EDT |
Agreed. But Microsoft really just wants money.. and they have significant footholds in the datacenter (e.g. web). A lot of places where Sun plays well... aren't necessarily places where Microsoft would do well (IMHO)... and I don't think there's anything Microsoft could do (apart from scrapping the whole Windows thing or writing something totally different) that would make a difference there. |
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