Defectors are a good riddance...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| r_a_trip Jun 09, 2005 8:35 AM EDT |
If a person doesn't believe in Free Software, than let him flock to "MacTels" and let him suffer the cast-iron wrench of proprietary EULA's and the (costly) upgrade mill. We don't need "numbers only in name". We need every user to be a supporter of the philosophy, because only the true believers in Free Software and Information Freedom matter, the rest are just back stabbing, spineless convenience animals. Yes, I am an Elitist. To uphold values, you need to be. You are either in or out. Run along "supporters" are a future liability... |
| incinerator Jun 09, 2005 8:57 AM EDT |
I second that. |
| mdl Jun 09, 2005 9:22 AM EDT |
Wow, r_a_trip and incinerator..... aren't we being just a little harsh here? Although I agree partially with your comments, the world is not black and white. We need more users so hardware suppliers will provide drivers, etc. I hope you would realize that Linux and FOSS is flexible enough to accomodate a wide range of interests and abilities. Re the article, I think I know what SJVN is trying to do.... inspire Linux to work harder to gain desktop share. While I agree with that goal, I don't buy into his arguments. First, this is no big deal. A new chip for the Mac, big deal. Second, few Linux users will switch to a Mac. Why go backwards, freedom-wise and spend a lot of money doing it? Third, to the extent that Windows users defect to the Mac instead of Linux, I say fine! At least they get away from M$ and for some of them it may just be a waystation on the road to Linux. Finally, there is one major advantage Apple, like Windows, has compared to Linux. It is pre-installed. I really would like to see more pre-installed Linux options. We will need to do something about this to ever make a real move on the desktop. |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 09, 2005 9:48 AM EDT |
Not sure I would second those views, but even a fraction of Windows users moving to the Mac might have some unintended benefits. Those leaving Linux for the Mac are to be damned only if you equate 0S == Religion. If you believe in freedom you must be more open minded allowing those to experiment even where you would not tread - given you superior knowledge. Last Summer I was lectured by my son on how XP Pro was the better desktop, especially compared to what I was using on a laptop: a broken installation of Mandrake 9.1 Pro. I just told him freedom was more important to me than some missing features (and I had many missing!). During the Winter break he had gone back to Mandrake at least on his server machine, because Windows could not run his prized application well: MythTV. During Spring break he was asking me about Fedora Core and in these last couple of weeks he has become enthralled with Debian though he flirted with Ubuntu twice. In essence, freedom is not to do just as you think is right and proper, it is an individual's right to manytimes to do what most of the population might think is wrong and improper. It is up to that individual to decide what is correct after making their own mistakes. That is, as I was just reading on the NYT a Saudi "dissident" says it's more important to discuss differing views, i.e personal freedom comes before even having elections. That was spoken by someone that really knows a repressive society, hence, I think he understands what real freedom might be. Blind followers are not what Linux needs, let those stay on Windows. We do not need education that stress rote repetition of "facts" as wisdom. The ones that leave and learn are the ones that will stay for good reasons not just because they are told to do so. They learned what is better - later they might leave for something even better. Remember what Linus said: " [approximately] ... all operating systems suck ... Linux sucks less ..." |
| DrDubious Jun 09, 2005 9:57 AM EDT |
The Mac platform is still proprietary, but it DOES seem to be "less unfree" than Microsoft's. There will always be a few people who aren't comfortable with the responsibilities that come with freedom, and will feel more comfortable on Mac OS than on Linux. That said, I tend to agree that we'll likely see a lot more Windows-to-Mac defections than Linux-to-Mac (and we'll probably see a healthy amount of subsequent Mac-Linux defections from former Windows-Mac defectors as some of them discover they like the additional freedom and want more...) |
| Abe Jun 09, 2005 11:15 AM EDT |
TxtEdMacs: I am not sure what you said is different from r_a_trip. You used a very diplomatic nice fashion and his in a revolutionary tone. He said let him suffer..., and you let you son find out. Isn't this the same? He said: We don't need "numbers only in name". You said: Blind followers are not what Linux needs, Sound the same to me! Excuse my English if I didn't see the difference, it is my second language. |
| mvermeer Jun 09, 2005 11:22 AM EDT |
MAc-on-Intel is a good thing because (and to the extent that) it punctures the desktop monopoly. Brings closer a world in which companies can no longer afford to publish Windows-only software, drivers etc. Windows and OS-X are different enough for this to bring closer a world in which multi-platform is mandatory, the new industry standard if you like. And Linux will benefit. I don't care about user count; I care about better and more diverse software. - Martin |
| dinotrac Jun 09, 2005 11:36 AM EDT |
WHOA!!!!! RAVING ZEALOT DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!!!! All of my systems are built on free software. Have been Since been since KDE 1.0 was still in beta, but... I believe in good software and good systems. When Debian went into QT madness, I switched to SuSE. If Free Software is unable or unwilling to deliver a better computing experience (which includes a ton of considerations), users SHOULD defect. Nobody has the right to demand loyalty when they put out crap. Defectors are a signal that things aren't as good as they should be. Rather than damn the defectors, better to determine and fix the problems. |
| incinerator Jun 09, 2005 1:51 PM EDT |
Well, lets get back to the article (and the related one, if you please).
SJVN sez the Linux Desktop must improve. He says that's because we will have Intel Macs soon and they will pose a big threat to the Linux desktop. He implies that the desktop software available for Linux (and I guess he means GNU/Linux, but that also applies to the BSDs, Solaris and whatelse) is of inferior quality to what we get on Windows and MacOS. Well, I don't know much about MacOS but for my needs KDE is more than sufficient and I actually feel more comfortable using KDE than using Windows, for many reasons. So why must the so-called Linux Desktop improve? Imho I doesn't have to actually. It is already there, being able to satisfy the needs of most users if they would just move their lazy bums and try it. Also, I fail to see why Mactel would be such a big threat to the allegedly inferior Linux Desktop? If people hesitate to move away from Windows to KDE,Gnome or whatever they will also hesitate moving to Mactel. Convenience is convience, I can't see why somebody will pay bucks for an overpriced computer just because he gets a shinier desktop with it? People are not wired that way, that's why Apple market share is so low. Even with x86 hardware MacOS will still have a very hard time breaking the Windows lock-in, just as KDE,Gnome etc. will. People are always expecting their computers to work flawlessly without having to acquire the slightest amount of computer literacy. Well, in a perfect world that may be a nice thing to have, but the real world doesn't work like that. MacOS is simply another shiny, cool-looking, non-free alternative. Compatibility is a good argument, but that alone doesn't make customers move. Why would somebody convert to a Mactel, even if it can run ms windows applications, if Mactel cannot offer them a good incentive for doing so? What is that incentive supposed to be? A wee bit more ease-of-use, some dog-and-pony shows, all that for a much bigger price tag? Well, why not buy a cheaper PC and run Windows on it instead then? Also, I support r_a_tip backing Free Software. Many people adopting GNU/Linux now don't give a damn about Free Software. I am happy for everybody to convert to GNU/Linux and I will always support it, but I am not happy about people not trying to understand that they not only get a safer, better working and cheaper OS but that they also get their freedom back. And this is exactly the thing SJVN has been failing to understand for quite a while now. For him, it all seems to be about bashing MS and whoever. He's probably never been to a LUG meeting, either. I don't get his angle, he just seems to be a loudmouth demanding things without actually taking a closer look behind the curtain, that's exactly the kind of guy I don't ever want to get involved into that Free Software project of mine. I think Apple made a very risky move deciding to switch to the x86 or x86-64 architecture. I think it can turn out well for them, but it could also do for the worse. And I really don't think that it will turn out badly for most of the Free Software projects going on. To the the "Desktops" for an example, KDE,Gnome,xfcfe,enlightenment and others already have a critical mass of users and developers to keep them going for the next couple of years. I don't see how that's going to change, either. Clearly, GNU/Linux and its desktop software could be more foolproof, but all that software already has got what it takes to use it seriously. Many people have been doing that for many years already. And also, these projects keep on improving even without the "help" of SJVN's demands. The Linux Desktop has been improving at a pace that is outrightly stunning compared to many non-free commercial projects. Anyways, I personally don't really care much about Apple and whether they will do well or badly. I have bought a single thing from them and I probably never will. I fail to see what MacOS could offer me what Linux or ms windows do not have already, so why should I waste the money and cage myself by using one more non-free operating system? Cheers, Dominik |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 09, 2005 2:16 PM EDT |
Abe - regarding the content, you are correct. It was the tone I was responding to. For a second language, you do pretty well. |
| helios Jun 09, 2005 9:37 PM EDT |
This may sway slightly off topic, but I would like to question something that was said at the top of this discussion by the tripster. We all know that Linux supplies buttloads of software, from everyday apps to the esoteric. What if...(humor me here), there just isn't an app for what I need under the GPL? Lets take it a step further and number 1, openly admit I couldn't write my own software if you held a gun to my head and 2, every developer I contacted told me to go to hell or ignored me. Say that there IS a proprietary offering for Linux for x amount of dollars. Are we as Linux purists to ignore the app in the name of the GPL? I dun think so Lucy...at least not from where I stand (sit, actually hunched over). If our developers are not motivated to write said software, the niche will be filled by good ol' capitalism and that app will be purchased by those who need it. As much as I cherish our philosophy, there comes a time when it just is not practical What say you? helios |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2005 5:03 AM EDT |
helios - I say that, if you're running a small business and your accountant works with Quickbooks, you're screwed. It will be in your best interest to use Quickbooks. If you want to do your own taxes with the aid of tax software, you're screwed. It will be in your best interests to use TaxCut or TurboTax or some such thing. Proprietary software is not the plague. It does not make you dirty by touching it. Like you, I prefer free software whenever I can use it. In fact, that's nearly all I use. However, the very idea of computing is to let you do more and do it better, not less and worse. It does free software no good to posit an all or nothing position. Most users can't afford to do that. |
| incinerator Jun 10, 2005 11:42 AM EDT |
yup, same old dilemma again: gilded cage or poverty... |
| dinotrac Jun 10, 2005 12:57 PM EDT |
Fortunately, free software means you can get out of the gilded cage long enough to do community service... |
| MESMERIC Jun 12, 2005 8:24 AM EDT |
I love proprietory apps on my Linux.
They are so cool.
There should be more of them. |
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