100% agreed.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| salparadise May 31, 2005 11:45 PM EDT |
The Ubuntu community is more or less as you describe the ideal community.
We have the odd little falling out and things get sorted quickly when fallings out occur but on the whole you'll not find a group so friendly or so willing to help whether the question be "which way up does the cd go in the drive?" or "how do write my own driver so I can interface with my shower"?
There's a couple of names in the Ubuntu forum you might recognise and they're just as willing to help the rank beginners as the well advanced.
We don't believe in RTFM. We believe in ubuntu (which means that we are who we are by being together and helping each other). I've had one or two unpleasant experiences with Linux users on LUG mailing lists. Asking a simple question like "how do I apply a patch?" produced the answer "man patch". (Literally that. A two word email). And the manual entry for patch is of NO use at all to someone who has never done patching. In fact, the whole manual system is poorly written for new users. It seems more to be a memory jogger for those who already knew but "forgot because it's been a while since...". (Or who have a very good idea but need the syntax tweaking). I don't believe it's necessary for every Linux user to be able to write drivers, compile the kernel, understand networking etc etc etc. Time was when Linux users where either sys admins or techies or designers or coders and not "just users". Now there are "just users" appearing and they want to know enough to keep going and that's it. The rest is SEP (somebody else's problem). Just like I don't care how the video player works as long as it does. So yes, rm -f attitude && rm -f elitism and apt-get install mercy The real skill comes in answering someone in such a way that they don't get offended, they feel helped and welcomed but your answer steered them in the right direction and they found some of it out for themselves. |
| r_a_trip Jun 01, 2005 8:14 AM EDT |
Elitism has no place in open source. Elitism very well has a place in Open Source. Giving help is not mandatory. We all have worked our way up to proficiency ourselves. That required reading (and occasionally buying a book), asking questions (very politely) and trying out. Anyone that will come to me with a genuine question for help and the willingness to do his/her share of working the system, will get the best answer I can give. Those thinking they will get a for free laboring slave to solve their computer-problems, without so much as a thank you, will get a nice RTFM and the F is anything but friendly... Open source is about freedom of everyone to look at the source of a program...EVERYONE. Yes, that is basically it, no more no less! I have never seen a provision in a license, that demanded a licensee to be helpful to new-comers or have his/her license voided. There are no qualifications for people to use open source. Since there are no criteria...why are people holding new users and others with limited knowledge...to a standard as if there are criteria? I do have a criterium. The person asking a question must be willing to get proficient in using GNU/Linux. This means that anyone else, thinking to get free "consultancy" and be done with it, can get a license to that other system. I have a life and I am not willing to sacrifice it, to become the 24/7 support guy of people unwilling to learn the basics. I am not going to artificially bump the numbers of GNU/Linux users. My time is not for free and when I donate my time, I want to be sure the donation is not for naught. ------------------------------- In reaction to Salparadise: I don't believe it's necessary for every Linux user to be able to write drivers, compile the kernel, understand networking etc etc etc. True. The system is not only usable to software developers. Now there are "just users" appearing and they want to know enough to keep going and that's it. When they learn the basics of the GUI (either KDE or Gnome, etc.) they are set. When genuinely asking how to do something in the GUI, they'll get my best answer. The rest is SEP (somebody else's problem). Just like I don't care how the video player works as long as it does. True. You don't have to know how the computer works, you have to know how to work the computer. The biggest problem I have encountered with the new batch of "visual learners" is that they assume that everything is SEP. The false sense of entitlement is staggering. Some are totally unwilling to lift as much as a finger and assume that you are there to take care of everything (without compensation ofcourse, because "the Linux is free"). When I sense that being the case, it becomes my problem and then it's YOP (Your Own Problem). Help is a plus, not a given right bestowed upon those asking. Share and share alike. You want help, you give your best effort to learn from that help. To cut a long story short; I'm not willing to help parasites. |
| devnet Jun 01, 2005 8:22 AM EDT |
r_a_trip, You missed what I said in the article. I think that we should revise attitudes because of a lack of learning tools. Not everyone can read a man page and extract dynamic solutions to their problems. Some need to 'see it in action'. I think that more visual learners mean that we should tailor help in that fashion. In my experience, a new user won't "lift a finger" because the DON'T KNOW WHAT FINGER TO LIFT. The problem isn't that the new user isn't willing to help, but he/she isn't willing to mess up. By giving new users confidence and helping them learn to ask questions the right way and how to find answer we show them how to solve their own problems and perhaps even others' problems. But, like I said, learners now are different. They aren't old skewl...sitting there peering through lines of perl and man pages. Should they have to be? Or should Open Source adapt and overcome like it always has? Or should open source sit there and be unyielding and stagnant? In my experience, Open Source has always adapted and overcome. I expect it to here...but it takes effort from everyone. Even elitist idiots who sit on top of info and make snide remarks to users on a forum/chatroom/whatever. |
| dinotrac Jun 01, 2005 9:36 AM EDT |
I have to chime in on this because I am one of those learning-disabled souls that has trouble wrapping my brain around something from the documentation alone. I often need to put my hands on something, to try it out, to get additional context. Once I can place it mentally, I can generally fill in the gaps, but it can be hard to do, especially when apis or interfaces are not done in a consistent fashion. Some of the attitudes I see make me wonder if the RTFM would tell a wheelchair-bound person, faced with a broken elevator, to CTFS. |
| mdl Jun 01, 2005 10:32 AM EDT |
I am going to come down in the middle on this. First, there is never a reason to be impolite to a noob. You can't tell if they are lazy or just uninitiated in the ways of Linux and open source, and there is no reason to offend someone. Second, I agree that I am not going to look up something just so someone does not have to bother with it themselves. When I go to a forum for help, I do it in a respectful way and briefly note what efforts I have made, on my own, to solve my problem. I find I am more likely to get a positive response that way. Finally, here is something that should be required reading for all noobs before asking questions. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html |
| helios Jun 01, 2005 2:20 PM EDT |
I have to chime in on this because I am one of those learning-disabled souls that has trouble wrapping my brain around something from the documentation alone. Yep...that's pretty much me. In fact, I avoid man pages like a virus and seek help from other more friendly sources. Now I don't support or advocate laziness, but I do expect the more knowledgeable of us to realize that many of our references and guides are almost algebraic in content...and THAT turns me into a slobbering idiot. I offer grep as exhibit A. I have had the opportunity to exchange emails with ESR and judging SOLELY from his responses, I guess him to be an ubergeek with the social skills of a land mine. I don't know him personally so I could be totally off base with this observation. Brilliant? Without a doubt. Abrupt, abrasive and intolerant? Without another doubt. Hints of that intolerance can be gleaned from portions of the above-provided link. ESR can keep his kegs of wisdom. I will seek my information from another more amiable source. In fact, I approach this issue from the position of my Mom or Grandmother. An ESR-like response to a query from either one of these ladies would elicit a rather hostile reaction from helios. You'd be better off with the landmine...one's survival rate would be much higher. However, this is quickly becoming a moot issue. With distro's like PCLinuxOS, Xandros and Linspire, using Linux is becoming drop-dead easy. Now you guys lined up above me, each of you have forgotten more about Linux than I will ever know, and some of you have helped me personally with a few of my problems, so I know your potential for patience and understanding. However, there are those among us who I suspect are a bit red-assed about the proliferation of Linux and the ease in which it is being presented. I just hope for the sake of everyone involved that my mom doesn't have to turn to those types for help. helios |
| sbergman27 Jun 01, 2005 4:54 PM EDT |
> First, there is never a reason to be impolite to a noob. You can't tell if they are lazy or just uninitiated in the ways of Linux and open source, and there is no reason to offend someone. And sometimes asking a group is far more efficient than digging it out one's self. And sometimes it is more rewarding. Sifting through documentation which, for FLOSS software, is often nonexistent, hard to find, bad, or has an apology (from 1997) at the end for how out of date it is, is not always a particularly good way of finding out what you want to know. And there is always the nagging question of whether what you are reading applies to your version of the software (Oops! That changed last week in version 3.4.2.7! Sorry!) , your distro, etc. If one asks the community, we have the opportunity to point that person, who may not be so much unlike ourselves a few years ago, in the right direction to spend their study time productively. To a more up to date and useful set of HOWTO's, perhaps. Or to provide helpful tips from our own experiences. There is a rather prevalent set of people whom I have never quite understood. Those who are quick to scold the original poster for asking for help, and then condescend to provide them a helpful answer. It's not a black and white situation. The asker gets his answer (and very often it is a very good one), but in a very rude way. Don't underestimate the impact of rude answers, however helpful, upon someone who is frustrated but still making an effort to try something new. And BTW, although I have been implicitly referring to newbies, it can also be much more efficient and productive for experienced people to simply ask the group as opposed to RTFM'ing. Asking != Laziness (No matter what your level of understanding.) -Steve Bergman |
| salparadise Jun 01, 2005 11:24 PM EDT |
Asking != Laziness (No matter what your level of understanding.) Did you mean to say Asking = Laziness? I disagree. Refusing to help another is laziness. In any area at more or less any time. The reason given for the refusal (question asked wrongly, questioner is unfit to know the answer, etc etc etc) are just excuses for poor behaviour. I have regularly taken the few minutes to find a link for someone or find the download page for a particular file. It takes mere seconds. It's a courtesy that others showed me when I started out and even if it wasn't, kindness is better than cruelty. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You don't really want people to be rude and dismissive and elitist with their knowledge to you do you? |
| dinotrac Jun 02, 2005 4:07 AM EDT |
Sal - Given the tone of the entire post, I think Steve meant exactly what he posted: Asking != Laziness. Your post suggests a better equation: RTFM = Laziness After all, when we are going through the docs, it doesn't become an 'FM' until we are lost and confused, at which point, being told RTFM is laziness at best, arrogance at worst. |
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