Oh, Boo-hoo.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| dinotrac Apr 10, 2005 6:00 PM EDT |
Same old, same old. What is this business of complaining that Ubuntu harms Debian? Debian harms Debian. If Debian ever got a release out, Ubuntu would be in no position to harm Debian. You could change the names and a few specifics and this whole converstaion could have taken place five years ago. Debian forever retains its attitude and more people discover that it's easier to live without it than with it. |
| wjl Apr 10, 2005 8:28 PM EDT |
Wrong. Like Ian said, Ubuntu would not be possible without Debian - and I think the Ubuntu guys won't argue that, too. Ian is right in his opinion that if a distro drifts off too far, it actually *can* harm. And again and again: Red Monk Analyst Stephen O'Grady, eh? Get a clue before you start whining about the not-so-bleeding-edged Debian. Sure, if you compare Ubuntu with Woody... on the desktop... sigh. But what am *I* complaining about? People who've got work to do use Debian anyway just my 0.02 Euro... wjl |
| mjjohansen Apr 10, 2005 11:13 PM EDT |
I was frustrated with a lot of things in Ubuntu, Libranet, Knoppix, Mepis - and others. I have never had problems with Sarge. So there are no objections to Sarge on my part. I hope that Hoary has fixed the annoying issues from Warty. At this point, Woody is only suited for mission-critical servers - stable, no candy. And that isn't too bad, either. |
| dinotrac Apr 11, 2005 8:45 AM EDT |
wjl -- I've gotten all the clues I care for. I used Debian exclusively for a couple of years, and as my gateway server OS for a couple of years after that. Anybody who wants to use Debian is more than welcome to it. More power to all of you. It's a fine distro for some people. That said, Debian has always been a distribution with an attitude that can create problems for users who are not in sync with its ideals and its approaches. Trying to fault Ubuntu for harming Debian when Ubuntu is merely trying to meet a perceived business need that Debian couldn't care less about is just typical Debian team arrogance. Somewhere along the line, the Debian folks forgot that a distro should serve a purpose instead of the other way around. |
| r_a_trip Apr 11, 2005 10:27 AM EDT |
Stale server releases don't make up a good "product" mix anymore. If Debian wants to stay relevant outside of the server room, they'd better get on with a modern (semi-)stable Desktop. The mix is Client-Server-Middleware. Debian better add the Client. Ubuntu has been pushing patches upstream from the very beginning, so Ubuntu is enhancing Debian. Debianites should think about their own situation and how it came to that point, before shoving the blame on innocent sister-projects. If there is something doing harm, it's the "it has to be perfect and all encompassing and also run on the fridge" attitude amid Debianites. Get the friggin' releases out of the door allready. Nobody with non-server needs is waiting 2, 3 years to get yesteryear's technology and nobody sane is willing to go unstable and without security-updates just to get current Desktop software. |
| Koriel Apr 12, 2005 12:32 AM EDT |
Quick disclaimer, I have never tried Ubuntu so i wont comment on it. As for a distro evolving in direction that somebody else doesnt like tough, get over it the users will decide if they like it or not and it will live or die on that score alone. One comment on Debian i used it for about 3 months 2 years ago, tried to convince myself that if i stayed with it i might like it, nope didn't happen wasn't current enough for my liking. Now take into consideration im speaking as a long time Slackware user which is not the most up to date distro around but it does have everything i need as a desktop and a home server and it is evolving at a rate which keeps it ahead of the dinosaurs. If Debian wish to remain relevant even to just a small percentage of folks then it had better speed up its evolution process or like the dinosaurs end up as a footnote in history. Maybe Ubuntu is the next evolutionary step, I bet the apes didn't like it to much when man evolved and started thumping them over the heads with old bones, cue Strauss and sprach Zarathustra :) |
| SFN Apr 12, 2005 6:40 AM EDT |
I really don't get why anybody has a problem with either Debian OR Ubuntu. Having both available is perfect. Between Stable, Testing, Unstable, Experimental and Ubuntu/Kubuntu we have free choices with a number of stability-to-usability ratios. You don't care about having the new stuff but want something you don't have to muck with? Stable! You want bleeding (-ish) edge? Experimental! You want a good desktop to install on your brother's computer so that he doesn't keep calling you to "fix windows"? Ubuntu! The biggest problem seems to be coming from people who view Debian and Ubuntu as competitors - which is ludicrous. Quite frankly, I don't see that Debian can have any competitors. When all you are trying to do is make a good operating system (and before anybody starts up, remember that whether or not an OS is good can only be determined by the person using it for the person using it) you can't have any competitors. Unless, of course, you want some. |
| wjl Apr 12, 2005 8:40 PM EDT |
Hi again all, first to dinotrac: with my "get a clue" I meant that journalist; not you. Sorry, I should have written more precisely. To Koriel: strong words... did you ever even try Sarge? Maybe you should. I don't see many points/advantages of using Ubuntu/Knoppix/Mepis/Kanotix/Xandros instead of Sarge or Sid. To r_a_trip: "nobody sane is willing to go unstable and without security-updates" eh? These are strong words, too. I have used Sid quite for a while just with that in mind, and you know what? When I read about security problems with one or the other package and looked it up with 'dpkg -l ', mostly I had a fixed version already. Sid (or Sarge if you wanna let others test first) is a perfect Desktop replacement for . To SFN & the others: of course they are competitors, if "branches" first take off a good bunch of very good hackers from the original (paying them, which is perfectly reasonable), and then these branches drift off the original so much that only a few things can be given back to the community, because the differences are just too big. I think that is what Ian meant. And his Progeny is far further than Ubuntu; it's a kind of "modular" approach, a distro for building distros. Very interesting. But not for me. Debian gives me more than I would ever need, so whatever I do is trying to give it back there. And since I *do* care about licensing, I use the main repository only wherever I can (of course on some machines you just *have to* build your own .deb of things like Sun Java). peace, wjl aka Wolfgang Lonien |
| devnet Apr 12, 2005 8:48 PM EDT |
Really, the whole situation can be summed up like this... Do you let the guy who has always got the job done and who is persistant and never lets you down go? Do you trust the new punk who comes storming in and flashes all his cool appeal around? The thing is...the new guy doesn't want to play by the same rules as the dependable one. If Ubuntu debs don't install on debian systems...they've lost sight of what the hell they are doing. They might as well be making rpms if that is the case. As a precursor...perhaps I should go out and by debfind.net because with what Ubuntu is doing...I don't see it very far off. |
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