Hmmmm
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| mdl Feb 21, 2005 8:07 AM EDT |
When I read this article, something just didn't feel right. Linux is not owned by anyone, but is owned by everyone. So, how has it been hijacked by vendors? I thought the author's name sounded familiar, so I googled. I found that Tom Adelstein has written a book on "Exploring the JDS Linux Desktop" and "How to Misunderstand Sun's Linux Desktop Strategy ". Now I am wondering if his message is a little too close the the Sun party line to be unbiased. Please note that I am not accusing Tom of anything, just asking. He seems to be very supportive of Linux in general. It is just that the tone of this article has me wondering about his frame of reference. |
| dave Feb 21, 2005 8:55 AM EDT |
I know you didn't question Tom's commitment, but it's worth mentioning it for your information. I've known Tom for almost 6 years now and have found him to be a generous and enthusiastic member of the Linux community. As for the Sun stuff, I can't speak to that, being mostly ignorant. Dave |
| mdl Feb 21, 2005 9:08 AM EDT |
Thanks, Dave. That is the sort of information I was hoping to find. I might be a little too suspicious of Sun and their motives, but I just don't think Sun is a true friend of Linux and open source, in spite of some good things they have done (like open office). I hope that some day in the near future Sun will see the light. Meanwhile, I accept your assessment of Tom and will try not be so suspicious. |
| tadelste Feb 21, 2005 9:42 AM EDT |
I guess I should respond to the question. When the original Sun team brought the JDS Desktop out, I felt that we had a winner. Sun engineered a quality desktop. Then things changed at Sun. They've gone considerably nuts believing their own Solaris10 story. I don't consider them a Linux advocate even though they have their distribution and it's coming out in beta soon. I'm considerably disturbed by everything they do. Will jdshelp.org continue to support the community - yes. Will we set up a linhelp.org site to support the rest of the Linux comunity -yes. Linux does belong to everyone. But, then if someone pretends to be a Linux advocate and deceives people - that's hijacking a community. IMHO - that is! |
| dthacker Feb 21, 2005 10:26 AM EDT |
It's too early to tell which corporations are really paying their dues. When I was at OSCON last summer, I felt like Novell was recognizing the contributors, but on the plane home I found myself wondering if it was really just a grand marketing strategy.
Perhaps we don't know because we haven't found a conflict where one of our new rich friends really has to take a hit to maintain the friendship. When the conflict shows up, we might be able to tell if we've been hijacked or not. DT |
| tadelste Feb 21, 2005 10:36 AM EDT |
dthacker: Very good points. I sat with a very well known analyst who felt that IBM has hijacked Linux. I'm not convinced about Novell, yet. Red Hat will open up their Fedora CVS to the public -- that provides some hope. IBM has done a good job making people think they're our friends. But how much of their business is Linux? If you don't know the answer, then IBM Media Relations has done a remarkable job. |
| peragrin Feb 21, 2005 11:53 AM EDT |
Tadelste : First it's good to hear from you again. Second. IBM has earned either 3 or 5 billion from linux server sales. IBM doesn't have their own Distro, they use both Red Hat and Novell(hence the IBM check to Novell to help them buy Suse.) IBM doesn't derive money directly from selling Linux. IBM sells servers, those servers just happen to run Linux. If you talk with IBM's AIX dept, they would rather sell you AIX. Sun Though doesn't know what it wants. Solaris would of been better off closed off. At least then they would be a good target for a buyout in a few years(aka Longhorn twooo) With Open Solaris, Solaris it self won't ever go away completely but now doesn't hold value for the company. Sun has to concentrate on hardware sales. I would like your opinion on two Off-topics though IBM's cell processor design. Will x86 finally die off? Sun just cleaned out the programing dept. Hopeing for Open Solaris to become more community driven. just how can they plan for that when they say comments like GPL users are only a small part of Open Source they really don't matter to us. (no it's not a direct quote it was in response to the patents only being for CDDL users) |
| cjcox Feb 21, 2005 1:15 PM EDT |
I know you're not asking my opinion, but here goes anyway: With regards to Sun... I do think that all the stuff they are doing does prep them very much for takeover. You've got HW that is WHQL certified, somewhat scorched earth with OpenSolaris, Microsoft partnership,... Can't say if it's intentional.. but has made me wonder. When you consider that margins are small on x86 (even x86_64) and that Sun isn't exactly a high volume seller, make you wonder if they aren't setting themselves up to be sold... but I'll admit, that's pure conspiracy theory. The non-conspiracy side is that Sun (combined with Microsoft) believe that they can effectively remove Linux from the corporate marketspace (Linux can continue to live, but strictly in the hobbiest arena). Fat chance I say... so either Sun is being naive, or perhaps there is a sub-agenda at work. Dunno. Of course, Sun has a fairly long roadmap for SPARC... but I'm not sure I believe it. I'm sorry, but a dual Opteron will beat even the new dual core SPARCs at less than half the price. Since x86_64 is now a tier 1 platform for Sun, I can't see the SPARC stuff lasting forever. I do think Sun will come out with some very nice 8-way and possibly 64-way Opterons this year. Shoot, they might even produce an 128-way.. but large scale SMP has gotten pretty rare now... we'll see. I see the cell processor as being best known for being inside the ps3. Just another piece of niche technology. Good technology. Just won't be inside your Grandma's PC anytime (just her gaming console). |
| tadelste Feb 21, 2005 1:39 PM EDT |
peragrin: First it's good to hear from you again, also. Before I answer the off topics, I'd like to address the IBM issue since I was an Influencer Partner, brought in the first US Reference Account and had a big hand in getting Linux accepted internally at IBM. They may have sold a lot of hardware and software but very little Linux is deployed in IBM integrated, blue suit or reseller accounts. Few people with Linux on their business cards have ever seen Linux. If you want to use Linux on iSeries - you have to buy OS400. The total number of people actually working on Linux at IBM is very tiny. From my experience - it's more fluff than substance. Oh - and when Steve Solazzo wanted to offer Linux on the desktop - he reportedly got his head chopped off (figuratively) and his team went to Siberia. So, I'm not impressed and I don't trust them. Now - Off-topic: >IBM's cell processor design. Will x86 finally die off? It's like betamax vs VHS. Or HDTV becoming the dominant television format which was supposed to happen in 2002. Also, when cable companies go with video on demand - available since 1997. It's so hard to replace an existing install base. I recall people saying MIPS would replace x86, then Sparc, then PowerPC. No one really knows - but I'm still waiting for the molecular IBM hard drive too. >Sun just cleaned out the programing dept. Hopeing for Open Solaris to >become more community driven. just how can they plan for that when >they say comments like GPL users are only a small part of Open Source >they really don't matter to us. (no it's not a direct quote it was in response >to the patents only being for CDDL users) Actually, they put the Solaris team on OpenSolaris. The team went from the back room to the other side of the firewall. In other words, the OpenSolaris team is the old Solaris programming department. I personally think they have convinced themselves of a certain reality that doesn't exist. Also, I cannot envision a situation where anyone would care to become a part of such a community given the culture. They are rapidly becoming irrelevant and they do not know it or get it. Jonathan makes pronoucements like linux is a social movement (notice the little "L"). Who is he to characterize the Linux community when he knows nothing about it directly? I don't see them as a threat to Amiga much less Linux or Microsoft. They outsource almost everything including their hardware - so what's attractive about them as an acquistion? Solaris is about as attractive as UNIXWare anyone can duplicate their hardware. I don't see them as an acquistion candidate and I don't see them acquiring anyone. Some years ago, when they came out with Sparc, no one would cover them from a journalistic point of view. No one wrote any articles about Sparc. So, they started doing benchmarks against MIPS and suddenly they got press. They're doing the same kind of thing now. They make claims and the press covers it and people worry. I suggest we stop worrying and ignore them. Finally, the difference between me and Chris - I think he believes that Sun has a relationship with Microsoft. I don't believe they do and I don't know of anything on which they are working at the moment. |
| mdl Feb 21, 2005 4:11 PM EDT |
tadelste: Thank you for your comments. I think I have a much better understanding now of where you are coming from. This has been a good discussion and thanks to all. |
| devnet Feb 23, 2005 9:07 AM EDT |
mdl: >When I read this article, something just didn't feel right. Linux is not owned by anyone, but is owned by everyone. So, how has it been hijacked by vendors? A schoolbus full of nuns isn't owned by anyone (one could argue, God I guess) yet it too can be hijacked. The logic of this statement is faulty. Someone can actually own Linux...owning is only about control and not about actually holding the license or deed on something. If some business out there controlled all of the directions that Linux will take from this point on...they may not hold license on Linux...but they own it in the sense that they control it. tadelste: >Linux does belong to everyone. But, then if someone pretends to be a Linux advocate and deceives people - that's hijacking a community Big business will have only one thing on the agenda...that is making money. Pretending is called "sound business strategy". If a business says they don't do this...that is, praise the almighty dollar, they're lying through the holes in their OS *cough* *cough* *micro* *cough* *soft* *cough* >I don't believe they do and I don't know of anything on which they are working at the moment. http://insight.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,39020463,39175807,00.h... http://www.oasis-open.org/about/ dthacker: >It's too early to tell which corporations are really paying their dues. When I was at OSCON last summer, I felt like Novell was recognizing the contributors, but on the plane home I found myself wondering if it was really just a grand marketing strategy. Wonder no more. A Motto to live by: Blessed is he who trusts the community (and the community alone) for they shall never be disappointed. This should be a part of some Open Source commandment somewhere :) |
| peragrin Feb 23, 2005 11:28 AM EDT |
Devnet: >>Someone can actually own Linux...owning is only about control and not about actually holding the license or deed on something. Um how? Let's take Xfree86 even though it's not GPL. People got tired of the crap the xfree86 team were pulling, they said fine we are taking your earlier stuff and creating a better version. It's called a fork. As soon as a couple of heavy weights realised that they could side step and not lose anything they did. I can fork the Linux kernel today, but that doesn't mean I control it. The only way to gain control of the kernel today is to influence Torvalds, cox and the other maintainers. The problem lies even if you get a few of the big names on board, All it takes is a couple to disagree , fork your stuff, and begin again. That is the true power of Open Source. Total Control doesn't really exsist, you can only lay claim to a small piece. |
| devnet Feb 23, 2005 12:39 PM EDT |
Peragrin: That's why businesses won't push and prod until a fork happens...they'll influence...bend the grass without breaking it. I agree that the true power of open source is that there is no visible control and no scapegoat...no one person to assign ownership to...but I belive it can still be "pwned" in the sense that it can be influenced or dominated in directions by corporations painting FUD and showering money this way and that. |
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