MS desparate - will Sun follow suite?
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| TxtEdMacs Nov 18, 2004 5:13 AM EDT |
If Sun jumps in in the next day or two to give the same or similar admonishment; that will be the point I finally write them off. Edit: [Please remove "as" in the title - did a last moment change without rereading title as carefully as I should have!] |
| mariuz Nov 18, 2004 5:26 AM EDT |
this one ? I think they have common strategy
1. bash redhat (visible linux target)
2. shared source :java+solaris vs .net+windows(maybe)
3. protect ip ? vs bazar (open source) war chest ...etc [url=http://news.com.com/Sun plans patent protection for open-source Solaris/2100-7344_3-5456451.html]http://news.com.com/Sun plans patent protection for open-sou...[/url] |
| mariuz Nov 18, 2004 5:35 AM EDT |
conspiracy theory at work
4.sun doesn't want itanic chips from intella
[url=http://news.com.com/Sun changing course on Itanium plans--again/2110-1006_3-5457257.html?tag=st_lh]http://news.com.com/Sun changing course on Itanium plans--ag...[/url]
so microsoft doesn't want itanic chips from intella
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/11/2348221 ps: take your own conclusions |
| mariuz Nov 18, 2004 5:45 AM EDT |
no conspiracy is just microsoft+sun alliance [url=http://news.com.com/Sun, Microsoft to outline alliance/2110-1014_3-5457084.html?tag=st.rc.targ_mb]http://news.com.com/Sun, Microsoft to outline alliance/2110-...[/url] |
| cjcox Nov 18, 2004 2:07 PM EDT |
In all fairness, Sun has changed from Microsoft hatred, to a friendlier stance. Somebody at Sun now believes that Sun will not displace all Microsoft installs world wide. I do believe it was GNU/Linux's friendlier integration stance that helped push Sun over the edge. Sun and Microsoft are actively working on bridging the gap between Windows/Unix.... however, the obvious choice in the community is to leverage Samba, but Samba is GPL... a dilemma for Sun (and Microsoft). However, Microsoft is making deals with Vintela now (commercial SMB and AD integration for Unix)... so look for the Vintela product inside of Solaris to satisfy your integration needs. |
| TxtEdMacs Nov 18, 2004 5:55 PM EDT |
cjcox: Maybe it is the hour, however, the points you are trying to make elude me. Yes I know about the settlement between Sun & MS and the cash that changed hands. The agreement calls for MS to provide internal code so that Sun can connect to Window systems. Is that what you mean by Sun becoming friendly [with MS]? And the second sentence in that paragraph - could anyone at Sun be so dense that they ever thought that they could completely displace MS on the desktop worldwide? If you said they saw a smaller potential, perhaps I could understand that. However, if Sun's figures for the Chinese installations were anywhere near reality for the so called Java desktop, it appeared to have real potential. Regarding the last point, if that was your intent - from what I saw Linux was eating Sun's lunch pushing out large multiprocessor servers that were replaced with X86 machines and Linux versions of the databases that were cheaper and out performed the Sun hardware. Maybe they are just seeing MS as less of an immediate threat and are prone to blame their problems solely on Linux. Does that in any way explain what you wrote in the middle paragraph? Regarding the last paragraph - Sun may find they are building a "solution" for a greatly diminished market. Vintela seems more likely to be a payoff for the people behind the SCO efforts. If that indeed is the route Sun takes, I would expect them to be shocked at the apparent lack of interest. I remain a bit confused at the message you were trying to convey. |
| cjcox Nov 19, 2004 9:00 AM EDT |
Sun and Microsoft have entered into a 10 year (?) partnership. The first fruit offerings deal with AD integration and single sign-on. All Sun platforms (Opteron) are to be WHQL certified to run Windows. Look for increased .NET integration with J2EE coming shortly (Sun is taking a HUGE risk on that one). This is what is known... there's a lot more in the rumor mill. Sun, like most all large (and "good") companies, shoots for high lofty goals, INCLUDING, world-wide computer domination. Sun has had this goal for... well... forever. However, Sun has made a switch. Where before they believe that by making Microsoft their sworn enemy they could somehow get people to switch from Microsoft's proprietary world to an all Sun PROPRIETARY world, they now are thinking differently. Microsoft is a master of embrace (apart from GPL, etc) and extend.. and Sun is now operating similarly. Does Sun want to destroy Microsoft? Ultimately, yes... but not right now. Btw... I'm not sure that Sun understands that Microsoft has the same long term plan with regards to Sun. These "friends" will ultimately take aim at each other. I can think of many, many companies that Microsoft has destroyed... can't say that Sun has nearly as much experience in that area. Anyway, Sun sees that integrating (like GNU/Linux via Samba) with Windows is a better enterprise message... for now. If you look at Solaris development... a 1988 designed operating system... change has been very slow. HPUX and AIX have better management tools... though Sun is catching up. If you want a very raw, unadulterated Unix... Solaris is a good choice. Solaris is not known for its ease of use.... unless you're a seasoned Unix admin... then it is all too predictable. So why buy Sun? Well, historically, Sun has been far cheaper. Both in machine cost and support costs. And I mean FAR CHEAPER. You would pay 2-4x for similarly configured equipment from HP or IBM in the past... and their support costs were at least 2x as much as Sun. Sun could deliver equipment in days, where as HP and IBM's delivery cycles measured 6-8 weeks or more. With those kinds of stats, it was easy for enterprises to choose Sun... even if Sun wasn't necessarily the top performer or easy to use. But Sun made the mistake of believing the world would spin the same way as it did... and with that, they really didn't advance the platform in radical ways... primarily talking about the operating system. Simple things, like dynamically tunable kernel parameters and dynamically loadable modules, administration tools... while somewhat supported in Solaris, had huge limitations and could have been better.. but it would seem that no one was interested in fixing those things at Sun. For example, while the world seemed to approve of USB support in their new offerings... everyone thought it was funny that Sun seemed more interested in having a back-lighted logo on the front of their boxes instead of supporting a mouse wheel (this feature was added, btw, by a Sun USER.. and NOT by Sun... what??!!). I find it interesting that many folks are questioning the enhancements in Solaris 10... not because these aren't great enhancements, but rather... Why did it take you so long to do this? Sun gives the political answer... "well... it takes years of design..." etc, etc.... but that's is simply NOT the case here. Sun sat on their hind side. GNU/Linux woke them up. Nothing wrong with that. Sun does have the capability of doing great and wonderful things... with the stock price down, engineers at Sun now have something better to do apparently... work on updating their product with some much, much needed upgrades. As I said, Sun's recent changes (product and business-wise) are good for Sun... and it appears that it may save them. Sun is working CLOSELY with Microsoft today. Neither of them will ever, no NEVER use the GPL (because the GPL destorys companies and the U.S. economy)... so Samba, as currently licensed presents a problem. Vintela has been doing AD integration for years (SCO being one of the primary users) and so it makes sense that Sun or Microsoft go make the deal with Vintela quickly since it is believed that this single sign-on project is somewhat behind schedule. People really need to get off the Vintela/SCO/Microsoft hang up... while the relationship between SCO and Vintela might (emphasis on might) have helped Microsoft.. the focus is on the relationship between Sun and Microsoft and the completion of the project between them (without reliance on GPL'd software). Even if Samba changed their licensing, it might be too late for this deal. No.. the AD integration piece will leverage the work of Vintela IMHO. Vintela, armed with no patents, is probably swinging from a rope... might have been interesting to hear how the deal actually went down between them and Microsoft. Microsoft is only interested in SCO in so far as it buys them a bit of additional time... I don't think Sun is interested at all, but doesn't mind reaping any anti-Linux sentiment that it might cause (don't look for Sun to stand up and support SCO with any public remarks). And btw... a lot of the reason for the migration away from SPARC (sorry folks) to Opteron is because of the architecture. Of course, AMD is more easily manipulated than Intel... but there were actually technical reasons for using Operton over Intel as well. The question is, will Sun be as sucessful in manipulating AMD as IBM was with Motorola? My guess is that Sun/AMD has even more potential (IBM still loving their Power Series possibly more so than Sun loves SPARC). Look for Sun to deliver 16, 32-way Opteron platforms in the coming year (or two). |
| TxtEdMacs Nov 19, 2004 11:36 AM EDT |
cjcox: Thanks for taking the time and effort to explain your reasoning as well as the points you were making. I am sorry I put the stress on you regarding this. I really did not understand what you were trying to express and in one case (from my interpretation) it went against a trend I was able to observe within a large organization. That is, a decisive move away from Sun hardware to X86 boxes (servers) running Linux and serving as the platform for already in use proprietary database servers. Another reason I asked for clarification was I had no difficulty understanding a post you had answering another comment I made. Regarding this one, no matter how many times I reread your terse exposition I became more not less confused. Thanks again for the time and effort - even though I was aware of some of the agreements you have breath of experience I lack. Your answers were enlightening and appreciated by me (and I am sure by others). While I can cut Sun some slack due to their history regarding Vintela, I cannot give such a benign interpretation with regards to MS. Their histrionics indicates too that they are really fearful and may strike out irrationally. I think they are reaching the point they will begin to execute some self destructive attacks. (See my posts on lwn.net: http://lwn.net/Articles/111621/ Please note there are 53 comments - I only have two about midway down - the first started the fireworks and my second is in answer to the first reply.) I am not overly optimistic in the short term, particularly as to what might happen in the U.S. Edit: Sorry known as sp_ware on lwn.net |
| cjcox Nov 19, 2004 12:55 PM EDT |
You're cheating though.. you're trying to focus this thread back on topic :) ! I'm sorry I posted such a long diatribe (maybe not completely a waste).... I really didn't mean to be so long winded. Just too much information and not enough time to tell the full story. I'm not sure if Microsoft will act irrationally... but they will fire their patent laden salvos at Red Hat shortly (guaranteed)... or better, Microsoft has become a pretty good anti-trust student, so they may send the salvos from a different, covert, location (organization/company). They're pretty sneaky. Microsoft understood Mel Brooks when he said, "It's good to be king!" |
| TxtEdMacs Nov 19, 2004 1:28 PM EDT |
cjcox: You may have thought it overly long - I wanted to hear more! |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!